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post #211 of 242 Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Full Keel

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Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
I am once again referencing the ARC+ and the very fine performance of the Laurin 32, Corona Ag. The overweight, full keeled, short, ancient, double ender that is currently sailing faster than many of the much more modern, fin keeled boats. As I have participated in a number of similar events, I must disagree with the assessment of PCP and Classic30 and certainly many dozens of others.
It shows no respect what-so-ever for all the fine sailors in the boats behind the Laurin 32, to imply they are all poor sailors and only the sailors on Corona Ag are good sailors. That is Absurd. The reason that all of those boats are behind the Laurin is because they are slower.
.....
Oregonian, with all due respect, I do think you've missed the point. The ARC is NOT a race and I, for one, am NOT implying they are poor sailors since there are many, many reasons one yacht might travel slower than another over a 2,700 nautical mile course regardless of it's hull design. The textbook treatise on that subject would be, I suppose, "A Voyage for Madmen" by Peter Nichols.

From the ARC FAQs:

"What is a Rally? Our definition of a rally is safe and social cruising. We offer an element of fun competition, but it isn't a race!" and:

"Can I use my engine? This is a cruising rally, so use of engines is OK! Boats in the fun competition Cruising Division must declare their engine hours for their results to be calculated. Boats in the RORC Racing Division are NOT allowed to use their engines for propulsion."

-
"Honestly, I don't know why seamen persist in getting wrecked in some of the outlandish places they do, when they can do it in a nice place like Fiji." -- John Caldwell, "Desperate Voyage"

Last edited by Classic30; 12-05-2013 at 01:33 AM.
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post #212 of 242 Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Full Keel

Classic30, Thanks for the response and the chance to, once again, state my position. You are very right. I should have been more clear. The ARC+ is not a race. The boats are simply doing the best they can to get across the ocean under the circumstances that they are in. It is important to take the sailors out of this equation IMO, and examine the boat types only. A very common, I’ll say normal, phenomenon is that one boat type consistently out performs another when simply cruising across the ocean. All of the boats in this rally are in the same position, but the heavy displacement, full keeled, double ender is ahead of the much more modern, fin keeled lighter boats. I am pretty certain that none of the boats behind the Laurin 32 are purposely going slower than they want to. The truth is that those more modern boats, when playing this “cruising” kind of game are slower boats.

You said “ An old traditional, yacht sailed well can, on average, given ideal conditions of wind and sea, travel just as far just as quickly as a modern yacht sailed badly”.
PCP added “Well it has to be a very well designed yacht, it has to be very well sailed and the modern boat has to be very poorly sailed, but yes you can say that”.

Those are your words and PCP’s. That seems to imply that the sailors are the most responsible for the results and that the conditions must be just so.
I am saying “The reason that the boats are behind the Laurin 32 are because those boats are sailing slower. But they are doing the best they can.
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post #213 of 242 Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Full Keel

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Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
... It is important to take the sailors out of this equation IMO, and examine the boat types only. A very common, I’ll say normal, phenomenon is that one boat type consistently out performs another when simply cruising across the ocean. All of the boats in this rally are in the same position, but the heavy displacement, full keeled, double ender is ahead of the much more modern, fin keeled lighter boats. ... The truth is that those more modern boats, when playing this “cruising” kind of game are slower boats.

....
You are really hopeless and your knowledge about boats is a very narrow one.

Believing that a 32ft Laurin is faster than a Passport 40 and that a Malo 43 is faster than a Bavaria Match 42 while cruising on a transat, giving equal conditions in what regards routing and sailing crew competence shows a great ignorance about those boats and their possible performance.

Regards

Paulo
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post #214 of 242 Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Full Keel

That response is par for the course on this thread pcp. Things dont prove out what you stated earlier, that is: roughly paraphrased "this rally will show us that modern boats when loaded are faster than old boats when loaded" so you resort to insults. This was your idea to watch these boats ...."it will be fun" was your ending comment.

Yes, it has been fun! hahahahahaha

Do try to keep up.
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post #215 of 242 Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Full Keel

Interesting discussion, but it's a little hard to follow what exactly is going in the ARC based on this thread.

What are the results so far? Is the ARC over? Are (were) there a significant number of full keel boats that are sailing faster than various "modern" hull designs, or are they just ahead on corrected time? I think following the progress of the ARC adds a pretty interesting data point of how classic designs actually perform at sea, at least in the trades.

S/V Argyle
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post #216 of 242 Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Full Keel

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But they are doing the best they can.
How the hell do you know that? For all anyone knows they may be heaving to for meals even. If one is not there it is pretty hard to say really.

Brian
Living aboard in Victoria Harbour
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post #217 of 242 Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Full Keel

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That response is par for the course on this thread pcp. Things dont prove out what you stated earlier, that is: roughly paraphrased "this rally will show us that modern boats when loaded are faster than old boats when loaded" so you resort to insults. This was your idea to watch these boats ...."it will be fun" was your ending comment.

Yes, it has been fun! hahahahahaha

Do try to keep up.
I did not insult anybody. You are quoting me wrongly and you should be more careful, that is not right. I said:


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post #218 of 242 Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Full Keel

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I did not insult anybody. You are quoting me wrongly and you should be more careful, that is not right. I said:
Calling someone hopeless is not an insult?

What, are you going to send the modern boat police after me? Pathetic.
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Re: Full Keel

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How the hell do you know that? For all anyone knows they may be heaving to for meals even. If one is not there it is pretty hard to say really.
Right, all those boats are heaving to for meals.
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post #220 of 242 Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Full Keel

It's getting to be about time for Hitler to make an appearance in this thread.

Old, full keel boats are faster than modern performance boats?

Puhleeeze.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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