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  #231  
Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Full Keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
PCP, this is for you, But I dislike getting off topic and I apologize.
I agree that a Bavaria Match 42 is probably faster than a Malo 43 on a short race course. (please dig up the PHRF numbers and help me out) It is a nice looking boat and has all the “fast” features. (pull up a picture and help me out again) Now put a 12’ RIB on the foredeck. The 20hp, 4stroke, outboard can go on the stern rail. The gasoline jerry jugs should be kept close by too. Are the bicycles on the stern rail also or are they in bags in the forepeak. This cruising boat will need extra water. Are the jerry jugs properly tied down along the deck or are you using a water maker? Don’t forget the extra diesel to run the charging system to make that water. You will be arriving at an anchorage. Don’t forget the stern anchor, and you’d better be prepared with a third anchor because s### happens. All the other stuff, the other 2000#s can be put away - somewhere. All in all you should just about be ready. Too bad all of that stuff is all above the waterline. Like anti-ballast. If you think you are ready, then go. It’s too bad though that you have had to add 60 seconds per mile to your trip. What’s the PHRF again?
PCP, I know this was all very childish but please be honest with me. Is the Bavaria Match 42 that is in the ARC+, however it may be configured, really as fast as the empty, crewed, Bavaria that is frequently raced?
Another exercise would be to visualize the very same kind of outfitting but on the smaller , modern, boats. If you do, you will visualize a slow boat. And Yes, it will be slower than a Laurin, or Westsail 32.
I don't know if you guys believe in all the crap you have being posting but the truth is that a Bavaria Mach 42 is much faster than a Malo 43, so much faster that any comparison in what regard speed is ridiculous even on a cruising configuration. The difference in rating (PHRF) would be like 50 points or so.

Regards

Paulo
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  #232  
Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Full Keel

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
That response is par for the course on this thread pcp. Things dont prove out what you stated earlier, that is: roughly paraphrased "this rally will show us that modern boats when loaded are faster than old boats when loaded" so you resort to insults. This was your idea to watch these boats ...."it will be fun" was your ending comment.
Yes, it has been fun! hahahahahaha

Do try to keep up.
Well, that is not nice. When you quote someone you should quote it correctly and that is not the case:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
This year ARC will be interesting to measure the performance of old bluewater designs with modern ones.

... 200 boats..Of course, the way the boats are sailed also counts but in so many boats we can easily discover a pattern and see if the claim that modern performance cruisers when loaded are as slow or not much faster than those boats. ...

....The subject here is the comparison of old designs with contemporary designs, fully loaded an on an Atlantic crossing.

ARC
I did not said modern boats but modern performance cruisers regarding old boats and that's because it was what you or someone claimed here, that a modern performance cruiser fully loaded was not faster than an old heavy design.

I said that the 200 boats of the ARC would be enough to determine a pattern statistically meaningful and instead you talk about the ARC+ a rally with about 30 boats that didn't fit on the big one and worse, among them there is only a performance cruiser (the Bavaria Match 42).

And then you talk about the performance of one old designed heavy boat as if it was statistically meaningful. Or you are just kidding or you don't understand nothing about statistics.

On that rally you have 5 old designed heavy sailboats: a Passport 40, a Moody 41 (old model), a Rival 38, a oyster 35 and a Laurin 32. All except the Laurin are on the tail, I mean, are the last of the rally, far away from almost all other boats and you take one single boat as statistically significant, regarding the performance of old designed heavy boats versus the performance of modern designed ones, forgetting the performance of the other 4 heavy boats:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
Paulo, is your only explanation that because the results don't fit with your theory the sailors are the difference? Its pretty funny that you left the caveat in your old post.
"Let me prove my point, but if things dont work out like I said they would, its because of the sailors" hahahaha
As you can see things prove my theory. Statistically old designed heavier boats are much slower and by far.

As I have pointed out there was no performance cruisers on this rally except for the Bavaria Match 42 that even if very badly sailed (26th in compensated time) it is a day ahead of the Laurin 32 that is very well sailed (7th in compensated) and it is an exception, not the rule in what are the overall comparative results of heavy old designed boats versus modern cruisers.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-05-2013 at 06:13 PM.
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  #233  
Old 12-05-2013
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Re: Full Keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
Well, shouldn't the Modern boats be faster than the Laurin even if sailed "worse"? After all, according to the go fast gurus there is absolutely no comparison in speed between the old boat and the modern boat.....right?
Ignoring the ARC for a sec and getting back to generalities, it is my experience, sailing both classic and modern displacement racing yachts, that there very little comparison in speed between the old boat and the modern boat of similar size - because the physics doesn't change. There's perhaps 1kt in it, but not much more. In fact, taking it to the extreme, in some conditions (eg. very light winds) some old designs can be significantly faster than a modern design due to greater SA/D and greater momentum.

Design rules have changed several times since the 1880's (roughly when gentlemen's yacht racing became a popular sport) and, each time the rules were tweaked to improve one aspect or another (eg. safety!) that did not always mean that the newer displacement yacht design was faster through the water than the old.

..more manoeuvrable, yes, more comfortable, perhaps, but always faster? No.
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  #234  
Old 12-06-2013
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Arc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post
.., sailing both classic and modern displacement racing yachts, that there very little comparison in speed between the old boat and the modern boat of similar size - because the physics doesn't change. There's perhaps 1kt in it, but not much more. In fact, taking it to the extreme, in some conditions (eg. very light winds) some old designs can be significantly faster than a modern design due to greater SA/D and greater momentum.

...that did not always mean that the newer displacement yacht design was faster through the water than the old.

..more manoeuvrable, yes, more comfortable, perhaps, but always faster? No.
Finally, when the first have already arrived, I had time to look at the ARC and its 200 boats cruising the Atlantic

World Cruising Club - Fleet Viewer

Regarding the performance cruisers and cruising boats, these are the ones that impressed me by their performance:

The Mills designed Marten 49 performance cruiser is doing a great transat sailing among the big yachts, going side by side with a Baltic 78.

The first 40ft boat is as usual a racing Class 40 pursued by a X 50 performance cruiser, both doing a great race but no better than a wauquiez (45 performance cruiser) that follows both. The first 40ft performance cruiser is a Pogo 12,50. That cruising Pogo 40ft is battling with ...a racing TP52. Besides the Pogo, the fastest 40ft performance cruisers are several First 40 (and 40.7), but at a very considerable distance.

On the real small performance cruisers going very fast and surrounded by much bigger boats, a Sunfast 3200, a Pogo30, an older and smaller Pogo 8.50 and a first 36.7.

Also doing a great and fast transat A Dufour 45e, a Grand soleil 43, a Dufour 40 (all performance cruisers).

Some other cruisers (not performance cruisers) going fast (and this one will put a smile on my friend Smack) a Belgian Hunter 36 (that have the balls to head North for wind), an American Southerly 42RS, a Van de Stadt Moorea 45, a Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 42, a Dufour 385, a Dufour 375 , two XC 45, a Bavaria 40 and a 42, an Amel super Maramu, a Southerly 110, a Dufour 425, a Bavaria 36, a Benetau Oceanis 411, a Bowman 42 and a Dufour 34.

All modern designed sail boats.

Maybe you can take a look where the more fast group of old designed heavy cruisers are: I give you a hint, look at the tail of the transat, several days behind some of those boats I mentioned

I guess that we can call that a difference of speed.

Surely, like we have seen with the Laurin, the way the boat is sailed has a lot of importance regarding speed and that's why I have looked at the best group of boats among the performance cruisers and modern cruisers and I am asking you to look at the best group among the old designed heavy boats.

The best on the two groups will be certainly well sailed but the same cannot be said for the worse cases on both groups.

Regards

Paulo
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  #235  
Old 12-08-2013
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Arc

I posted this on another thread and I think it is relevant here too:

ARC- Performance cruisers and comparative difference to other types of cruisers:

So, how compare performance cruisers in a transat with medium height modern cruisers? A lot of talk about the performance of a performance cruiser loaded for a Transat to be prejudiced to the point of being so slow as medium heavy boats, and some would even believe, than heavy boats. A lot of crap. They are way faster than even bigger medium weight sailboats, as we would see.

First let me tell you that modern boats are only considered medium weight if compared with typical modern mass production boats and the difference is not that big. It is certainly much bigger if compared with what used to be medium weight boats or what used to be the weight of this type of boasts 20 or 30 years ago. An average 30 year old performance cruiser (for instance a Swan) has about the weight of a comparably sized medium weight cruiser today.

Secondly that this year the conditions, except for the ones that chose the North route, did not suit performance cruisers. The bigger difference in speed regards the difference of speed downwind with strong winds where these boats can go to semi-planing or even planing speeds and be way faster than much bigger boats. They sail also better with very light winds and even if this year the conditions were strange, with upwind sailing and not strong winds, really light winds were not so frequent (less than 8k).

And finally that the way a boat is sailed is fundamental to the performance. I assumed that among so many boats (+200) the ones of each type that have the better performance are the ones well sailed. In so many boats we should find some well sailed boats in each type and I will consider irrelevant the performance of the others. Any boat can be very slow if sailed badly or very far away from his potential.

A warning also, the boats that are not racing can use their engine and are using the engine on situations without wind or with head wind. In the end sometimes they give the number of hours each boat used the engine but that's obvious that a boat with a large tankage like the IP 485 that carries 1100L of fuel will be motoring a lot more than boats with a 150L tankage. That will be reflected in their "performance" and on the position they occupy on the map.

Regarding those that went North, they sailed faster and made a big difference to the others that choose a central course. That is the case for instance of the Marten 49 that is ahead of the first medium weight cruiser, a boat twice as big, the Oyster 865 by 30Nm and the oyster is making a very fast transat.

If we went looking for the first medium weight modern with the same approximated size of the Marten 49 we would be looking at the XC 45. I know it is smaller but they are faster than any other 49/50ft medium weight boat (it is just a great cruising boat). There are a difference of about 700nm between the two boats. That means they are about 4 days away.

Curiously and as I have been saying the performance of XC 45, even if not a performance cruiser is similar to top performance cruisers from 30 years ago. We can see that a Swan 51, a swan 46MKII or a Swan 53 are in the same performance range being all at more or less the same distance from the finish (+- 100nm).

The Marten 49 is an exceptional and very expensive performance cruiser. Let's see if difference to more "normal" production performance cruisers is also a big one:

There next performance cruiser is a 50ft boat, a X50. The distance for the first medium weight 50ft cruiser (again the XC 45) is of about 500nm (about 4 days). Another performance cruiser doing a good passage is a GrandSoleil 56 that has a an advance of 117 to 120nm regarding a Gunfleet 58, a Discover 55 and a Jeanneau 57.

The difference will be way bigger if we look at the 40ft cruisers. The faster performance cruiser is a Pogo 12.50. The first medium displacement boat is a Oyster 406 and is at 622nm, a Moody 425 is at 694nm, that means at about 4 days away.

Regarding the distance of the Pogo to modern mass production cruisers the distance is smaller. He have a Dufour 385 at 344Nm, another Dufour 375 at 431nm and a Bavaria 40 at about 500nm. The diference of the first 40ft light modern production boat (the Dufour 385) to the first medium weight 40ft is of about 280nm, almost 2 days.

It is true that the Pogo 12.50 is probably the faster 40ft performance cruiser in a Transat since it is a boat maximized for downwind sailing. If we look at the fastest of the more conventional 40 performance cruisers, a First 40.7, that is at about a day from the Pogo, those numbers will be diminished by 180nm. The First would be at 442nm of distance regarding the first medium weight cruiser, the Oyster 406, even so more than 3 days.

If we look at 36ft boats the first is a First 36.7. The first medium weight 36ft cruiser is a Halberg Rassy 36 at 521nm (about 4 days) and the best modern 36ft cruiser is a Hunter 36 at 267Nm (almost 2 days).

Regarding performance cruisers with around 30ft, the first is a Sun Fast 3200, the second a Pogo 30 and the third a Pogo 8.50. The difference from the first to the last is of 188Nm and the 3200 is way faster. The difference between the two Pogos is only 61nm. The distance from the Sunfast to the first medium weight cruiser, a Forgus 31 is of 729nm (about 5 days) and to the Pogo 30 599nm, about 4 days.

We can conclude that in all sizes the difference in performance on a Transat, with the boat loaded with the needed provisions and tankage, between a performance cruiser and a medium weight cruiser is a big one and increases in proportion with the size of the boat. On really big boats, with over 50ft that difference is not as big, maybe because in those sizes the big LWL is a more determinant factor.

We can also see that the performance of a mass produced modern cruiser is better than the one of an medium weight cruiser by about the same margin that separates this one from a performance cruiser.

If we considered heavy boats the diference would even be more substantial. There are some in this rally but as they are not many the best performance between just a few would not necessarily be a good one. They are on the tail of the transat anyway.

Finally we can see that the crew is an huge factor regarding the speed of a boat and if a slower boat cannot go faster than a certain limit, even with the best possible crew, a faster boat can go much slower than his potential with a bad crew. We can see similar boats separated by many days. That has nothing to do with the boat but with the crew.

Just an example: The Belgian Dufour 40 Heckogecko (same model) is at 674nm (about 6 days) from the Portuguese Dufour 40 Conquilha III.

Only two Portuguese boats but both doing well. One is this Dufour the other that First 36.7 that is by far the fastest of the 36ft boats.

http://www.worldcruising.com/arc/eventfleetviewer.aspx
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Last edited by PCP; 12-08-2013 at 03:22 PM.
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  #236  
Old 12-08-2013
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Re: Arc

I've had a look at the fleet viewer and see nothing unexpected. There are some boats being sailed 'racing style', shall we say, others wandering all over the ocean (trying to find the best wind? who knows!) and some being sailed rather 'comfortably'..

Other than those who have retired and turned back (presumably from gear failure?) I'm sure they're all out there enjoying themselves sailing their chosen yacht - full keel or fin - the way they choose to on the course they choose. In a 'rally' where everyone who reaches the finish wins, far be it for me or anyone else to judge one yacht's "performance" over another.

OTOH, if this was a race..


Paulo, FWIW, like many Aussies I'm a keen follower of the Sydney-Hobart and have been for a few decades now. (I suppose I have to admit that it's a family tradition that every year we sit around the TV and watch the start ). I don't know if you've ever taken much notice of this race over there - but it is a race and it has a wide mix of all your favourites: TP52's, super-maxis, maxis, pocket-maxis, performance cruisers and even, sometimes, and old full-keel cruising boat in it.. but, unlike the ARC, its a race. One I've only been in once, didn't finish and will never do again, but one that would probably provide you with a better comparison of performance than the ARC. It starts in 3 weeks..

http://rolexsydneyhobart.com/
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  #237  
Old 12-08-2013
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Re: Arc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post
I've had a look at the fleet viewer and see nothing unexpected. There are some boats being sailed 'racing style', shall we say, others wandering all over the ocean (trying to find the best wind? who knows!) and some being sailed rather 'comfortably'.. ...

..I don't know if you've ever taken much notice of this race over there - but it is a race and it has a wide mix of all your favourites: TP52's, super-maxis, maxis, pocket-maxis, performance cruisers and even, sometimes, and old full-keel cruising boat in it.. but, unlike the ARC, its a race. .. one that would probably provide you with a better comparison of performance than the ARC.
That's why I one took as reference the best sailed boats of each type. In +200 there should be some well sailed among each type of boat and it was only at those that I looked at.

As you say this is a very low profile race and many just race it for the fun of it even if nobody likes to be left behind.

The objective is to take the boat to the Caribbean to pass the European winter cruising and the boats contrary to the Sydney Hobart, that is a smaller race, are loaded with all it is needed for a transat and cruising equipment.

That's why this transat in what regards the typical cruiser is a much better one to evaluate boat performances not to mention that this transat has 3 more boats than the Sydney-Hobart where most boats are much more raced typed than on this low profile "race".

Sure, the Sydney Hobart because it is a top race is better to evaluate the racing performance of sailboats while racers. This one is much better to evaluate the sailing performance of the boats while fast cruising on a make believe racing. Contrary to the Sydney Hobart there are very few racing boats on this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post

.. ...- full keel or fin - ..
Well, here you are wrong. On +200 sailboats there is not one with a full keel (as Jeff already explained the IP is not a full keel yacht). You don't find it odd that in more than 200 skipper not only one has chose a full keel boat?

By the way I love the Sydney Hobart and I have made here the coverage of the race on the last years

Regards

Paulo
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  #238  
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Re: Arc

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
That's why I one took as reference the best sailed boats of each type. In +200 there should be some well sailed among each type of boat and it was only at those that I looked at.

As you say this is a very low profile race and many just race it for the fun of it even if nobody likes to be left behind.

The objective is to take the boat to the Caribbean to pass the European winter cruising and the boats contrary to the Sydney Hobart, that is a smaller race, are loaded with all it is needed for a transat and cruising equipment.

That's why this transat in what regards the typical cruiser is a much better one to evaluate boat performances not to mention that this transat has 3 more boats than the Sydney-Hobart where most boats are much more raced typed than on this low profile "race".
But.. you're assuming they're "racing".

Sure, I guess everyone knows it's a race whenever 2 yachts are in sight of each other and going in the same direction, so, statistically, picking the boats in the lead you should be right. Looking at the routes of some of them I'm just not sure your sample size is large enough or that the results of one "race" is enough to make a definite conclusion. Are there any past results available?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Well, here you are wrong. On +200 sailboats there is not one with a full keel (as Jeff already explained the IP is not a full keel yacht). You don't find it odd that in more than 200 skipper not only one has chose a full keel boat?
What about the Laurin 32?

Anyway, in the 21st Century, no, I don't find it odd at all. People buy whatever happens to be on the market that fits (a) their budget and (b) the kind of sailing they generally want to do - unlike the Sydney Hobart, they don't rush out and buy a new yacht specifically for this event. As you know, Benehuntalina and the rest of the mass-produced plastic fraternity have done a great sales job over the past decade or so and AFAIK almost everything they have ever offered is fin keeled, because speed, cost and manoeuvrability are more important to most people than "classic lines" and storage space in the bilge. For this reason I would also not expect that very many people interested in the ARC would also be the home-built oxidised-aluminium full-keeled low-budget world-traveller types that you see in most ports of the world because I imagine they would be left far, far behind...

It might be interesting to also look at what caused the retirements.
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Last edited by Classic30; 12-08-2013 at 07:45 PM.
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Re: Full Keel

from the little info I could gather about retirements is the ARC:

40Green Pogo Electrical Problems
Liberte Jeanue 57 Broken boom
Zenaarara Clark 72 Steering Problems

A little bit of everything...
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Re: Full Keel

But how can we use results from a race where you can run your engine? Not that I don't like the idea, I've wanted to run my engine in a lot of races, but it sort of throws performance comparisons out the window. Or am I wrong?
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