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  #31  
Old 07-11-2013
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Re: Full Keel

Dave:
I agree with you. It's always best to use boats you know well as benchmarks. Numbers are only numbers. It bothers me that people rely so much on numbers that they can barely understand. I understand them and I am always willing to help.

ctl:
"Most race courses are windward leeward"

That is not correct. Most race couses are triangles and variations on triangles. I know. I have been racing for the last 50 years.

Oh, that is painful to admit.
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  #32  
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Re: Full Keel

Local weeknight/weekend races around here are just up down no reaching. Regional races they will change it up a little but the emphasis is still windward ability. Hence all the talk about pointing ability. Cruisers fire up the engine or wait. Pointing ability is important from a safety standpoint for cruisers but not to the degree of racers. Nobody wants to sail days on end bashing to windward unless its for the glory of the pickle dish lol.
Back on topic how does the Op make a comfortable cruiser sail to its best? What's a good compromise?
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  #33  
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Re: Full Keel

Here is a heavy full keeled boat in Puget sound.



What would the true wind be here Jeff_H?

Last edited by GBurton; 07-11-2013 at 11:57 PM.
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  #34  
Old 07-12-2013
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Re: Full Keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBurton View Post
Here is a heavy full keeled boat in Puget sound.

What would the true wind be here Jeff_H?
There are many reasons the boat speed could be higher instantaneously. Momentum from a earlier gust or catching a wave are two I can think of off hand.

Not sure why we are hell bent on trying to prove Jeff_H wrong. Fighting a losing battle in this case.

There are many reasons to love our beautiful old long keeled boats but performance in light airs is not one of them.
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  #35  
Old 07-12-2013
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Re: Full Keel

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Dave:
I would warn you against lumping all full keel boats into the same performance basket.


In light air wetted surface is your enemy and pretty much any full keel boat is going to have more wetted surface than a modern split appendage design. But the term "full keel" is used to describe a wide range of boats and there are full keels and all variations on that theme and some will have less wetted surface and more artfully shaped keel foils.

You should pay attention to the SA/D of the boats you consider. Horsepower is a huge help in light air as is overall height of the rig.
I've owned two full keel older designs and one is a much better sailer in light air. The former had a SA/D of around 15, the later, nearly 18. Night and day in light air.

Another thing I learned from Bob, "Weight is the enemy". That one I use to advantage to get the most out of my full keeler in light air(I overloaded my first boat which made it even less of a light air boat).

Thanks Bob for these tips over the years, and you give your design experience in refreshingly few words, a real plus on the these forums.
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Re: Full Keel

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Originally Posted by shanedennis View Post
There are many reasons the boat speed could be higher instantaneously. Momentum from a earlier gust or catching a wave are two I can think of off hand.

Not sure why we are hell bent on trying to prove Jeff_H wrong. Fighting a losing battle in this case.

There are many reasons to love our beautiful old long keeled boats but performance in light airs is not one of them.
Not trying to prove anybody wrong here. In fact, Jeff is right. Boats are designed to meet the usage the designer had in mind. I only rebutted the "certain model boat bashers" from the standpoint that a boat meeting the designers criteria does not make it an 'all around' poor choice.
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Re: Full Keel

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Originally Posted by Seaduction View Post
Not trying to prove anybody wrong here. In fact, Jeff is right. Boats are designed to meet the usage the designer had in mind. I only rebutted the "certain model boat bashers" from the standpoint that a boat meeting the designers criteria does not make it an 'all around' poor choice.
Yes, for sure. IPs are built for a market that exists for "classic" cruising boats built like brick sh!thouses. They conjure dreams of low pressure cruising in reliable latitudes.

The long keelers are dream makers. They may not win any races around the buoys but they will give you the confidence to get out there.
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  #38  
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Re: Full Keel

"they will give you the confidence to get out there. "
I think that is very important Shane. I can't imagine sailing a boat I did not have confidence in. As a pal of mine once said, "Different boats for different folks".

Tom:
Thank you.
I'd try and use more words but I have this problem with typing and spelling. When my boys were young I gave them both the collected works of Jack London. I told them that Jack was the master at saying a lot with few words. He probably couldn't type either.
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  #39  
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Re: Full Keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomMaine View Post
I've owned two full keel older designs and one is a much better sailer in light air. The former had a SA/D of around 15, the later, nearly 18. Night and day in light air.

Another thing I learned from Bob, "Weight is the enemy". That one I use to advantage to get the most out of my full keeler in light air(I overloaded my first boat which made it even less of a light air boat).

Thanks Bob for these tips over the years, and you give your design experience in refreshingly few words, a real plus on the these forums.
I think that there can be big differences in the way that boats with full keels actually sail. Some of these differences can be explained at a macro level in terms of the relative stability, sail area and sail plan efficiency, and displacements of two boats, which just happen to have full keels. On a finer level, some differences can be explained in the way that the boat is modeled (shaped).

But some the differences may occur in the way that the term full keel is defined these days.

To me, this is a full keel:


This is not: It is a boat with a cut away forefoot and raked rudder post with substantially reduced wetted surface as compared to a full keel. It offers a little better performance but does not track as well as a full keel.



Jeff
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Re: Full Keel

Quote:
Originally Posted by shanedennis View Post
There are many reasons the boat speed could be higher instantaneously. Momentum from a earlier gust or catching a wave are two I can think of off hand.

Not sure why we are hell bent on trying to prove Jeff_H wrong. Fighting a losing battle in this case.

There are many reasons to love our beautiful old long keeled boats but performance in light airs is not one of them.
I don't think anyone is hell bent on proving Jeff wrong, rather he is hell bent on trying to prove the older full keel designs are all slow and cannot compare with newer designs. I disagree...and that picture was not taken after an earlier gust or after "catching a wave"

Theorizing is all good and well, but sometimes a picture can be worth a thousand words...
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