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post #41 of 242 Old 07-12-2013
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Re: Full Keel

No. it's really common knowledge that old, heavy, full keel boats are just as fast as modern boats. That's why you see so many old, heavy, full keel boats on the race course today. A year or two from now you will be hard pressed to find a manufacturer producing a fin keel design.
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post #42 of 242 Old 07-12-2013
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Re: Full Keel

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
No. it's really common knowledge that old, heavy, full keel boats are just as fast as modern boats. That's why you see so many old, heavy, full keel boats on the race course today. A year or two from now you will be hard pressed to find a manufacturer producing a fin keel design.
What is your definition of modern?
PS try not to be so grumpy, its just boats..

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post #43 of 242 Old 07-12-2013
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Re: Full Keel

Of couse it's just boats. That's my whole point.

Enjoy your boat for what it is. Do not try to pretend it is something else.
You don't need to be the fastest or the grandest to enjoy your boat. Just enjoy the old lady for what it is.

And for the record, "modern" is today.

Look back. See that the history of yacht design shows that keels have gotten shorter and shorter. To the point wher the rudder was moved too far forward to control the boat. Then the rudder moved aft, seperated from the keel. Boats went faster and hanled better.

I did not make this up. A clear headed look at the progession of yacht design shows this to be fact.

If I am wrong then we are certainly headed backwards to a day when full keels ruled.

Don't be so absurd.
Just enjoy your boat for what it is. Do not imagine it is something else. I likeall kiinds of boats.

Grumpy? Maybe. Real? Yes.
I am ready and willing to go head to head with you on this if you like. Fletch your arrows.
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post #44 of 242 Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Full Keel

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Of couse it's just boats. That's my whole point.

Enjoy your boat for what it is. Do not try to pretend it is something else.
You don't need to be the fastest or the grandest to enjoy your boat. Just enjoy the old lady for what it is.

And for the record, "modern" is today.

Look back. See that the history of yacht design shows that keels have gotten shorter and shorter. To the point wher the rudder was moved too far forward to control the boat. Then the rudder moved aft, seperated from the keel. Boats went faster and hanled better.

I did not make this up. A clear headed look at the progession of yacht design shows this to be fact.

If I am wrong then we are certainly headed backwards to a day when full keels ruled.

Don't be so absurd.
Just enjoy your boat for what it is. Do not imagine it is something else. I likeall kiinds of boats.

Grumpy? Maybe. Real? Yes.
I am ready and willing to go head to head with you on this if you like. Fletch your arrows.
Damnit. Am I going to have to grow a beard and start smoking a pipe?
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post #45 of 242 Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Full Keel

I've got a Rafiki 37 and thus far have been happy. She's very similar to the Pacific Seacraft 37 and the Tayana 37. All came out at the same time in the mid 70s and all are full keel with about 13 tons of displacement--Seacraft is a bit lighter. We're in the bay area, so rarely have light winds, but when there's wind in the sails she moves smoothly, even in the lighter wind. I'm real pleased at how well she points to weather, and for rough water, I've never had a boat that was quite so solid. We've only had her since January, but we're on the bay at least once a week. Good luck, Dave.

Kunk

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post #46 of 242 Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Full Keel

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I think that there can be big differences in the way that boats with full keels actually sail.


Jeff
Very true. My keel was a "go faster" improvement at one time.

I'm with Bob on PHRF #'s too, and looked at mine before I considered the boat. 156 sounded good for a boat design from this era.

But when I sail next to my friend Georges J35, he points at least 10 degrees higher, while he's going,... faster.

I think people put too much emphasis on specific design details when it relates to a boats speed. If I put Georges 7' foil fin on my 1961 hull, things wouldn't change dramatically. It's the sum of all the other design differences, hull, rig, sails, etc etc that make his J35 70 seconds a mile faster.

I love Georges J35, I just prefer the feel and experience I get sailing an older style boat. I'm not sure new boat design has improved that aspect but that's just my taste.

My favorite sailing is in light air with boat speeds under 5 knots.
Racing has spoiled too many good sails for me.

Tom Young sailing a 1961 38' Alden Challenger, CHRISTMAS out of
Rockport, Maine.
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post #47 of 242 Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Full Keel

I agree with Tom we also like older boats. For a short day sail I have fun on the newer light boats but it gets tiring. If a full keel design fits your style that's what you should buy. We like the late 70's early 80's fin keel boats. Back in their day they would be considered light like Bob's V40. Now they are over weight tanks to some.
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post #48 of 242 Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Full Keel

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Originally Posted by kunkwriter View Post
I've got a Rafiki 37 and thus far have been happy. She's very similar to the Pacific Seacraft 37 and the Tayana 37. All came out at the same time in the mid 70s and all are full keel with about 13 tons of displacement--Seacraft is a bit lighter. We're in the bay area, so rarely have light winds, but when there's wind in the sails she moves smoothly, even in the lighter wind. I'm real pleased at how well she points to weather, and for rough water, I've never had a boat that was quite so solid. We've only had her since January, but we're on the bay at least once a week. Good luck, Dave.

Kunk
The Rafiki 37 is a venerable design that is closely derived from the Atkin's Ingrid. The Ingrid was a state of the art cruiser when she was designed and has always been a appealing design for its day. It is much closer in concept to the Tayana 37 than the Pacific Seacraft 37. Both the Ingrid and Tayana are closer renditions relative to their Scandinavian ancestors.


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post #49 of 242 Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Full Keel

"Overweight tanks"?

I agree with you and I chuckle when I think back to 1974 when a noted yacht designer writing an article in YACHTING wrote that the Valiant was "too light to be considered a serious offshore boat".

Early this year (stop me if I told you this already) we raced my buddie's Baba 35, pilot house model, in the Race Your House race in Seattle. It's a race for only liveaboards. It was a very varied fleet with Catalinas, Hallberg Rassy's Ingrids, Cape George cutters and other cruising type boats. We had a good breeze with gusts up over 20 knots at times. We got second in class and sailed boat for boat upwind and down with many fin keel boats and did manage to beat a lot of them boat for boat. It was a testimony to what a good, full keel boat could do. We did not point as well as the fin keelers but we only gave up about 4 degrees of AWA to them. It was a kick in the ass to watch the faces of the competitors as we hung in there with them. "What are yoiu doing here?"

I try not to generalize about boat types. Some of my very best designs are the Tashiba series 31, 36 and 40 full keel boats. They can surprise you with their performance. The tall rig Baba/ Tashiba 40 AIRLOOM is a regular race winner on Puget Sound.
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post #50 of 242 Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Full Keel

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The tall rig Baba/ Tashiba 40 AIRLOOM is a regular race winner on Puget Sound.
Somehow I think that is a critical statement re: full keelers performance.

How many of them have Sa/D ratios over 15 or so? I would venture "not many" and that short sail is the real cause of their rep for being slow in light air, or at least as much to blame as the wetted surface.

I met a guy once who had a hot rodded '65 Chevy Impala that would run the 1/4 mile in the 10 second range. That aircraft carrier was the automotive equivalent of a full keel but it had the "sail area" to make up for it.
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I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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