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46K views 241 replies 36 participants last post by  PCP 
#1 ·
At the end of the Summer my wife and I will be moving into the Pac NW (Puget Sound area) and we will begin actively looking for our retirement boat. Previously we've owned a Pearson 365 Ketch and an Omega 36 Sloop.

Question for the masses: Just how bad are full keel boats at making way under sail in light to moderate winds - say 7-15 knots?

We've never had a full keel before and would be interested in knowing how well they perform in the conditions we can expect in the PNW.

V/R

Dave
 
#2 ·
The keel is only one part of the boats performance. One full keel boat my be fine another may not move unless its blowing 20. How did you like the performance of your 365 compare that against the specs of the boats you are looking at. Giving the 365 the edge for not being a full keel. Also walk the docks and get a few rides to see what you think.
 
#3 ·
We loved sailing on our first boat, an Omega 36 sloop. Kind of like a sports car - fun to 'run around' in but not sufficient for what we were looking for in a live-aboard cruiser. We sailed the Pearson across the Gulf of Alaska and absolutely loved the way she felt in a heavy sea. The deal breaker for her was the lack of a dedicated second berth. When we took our son and his family on a weekend cruise we found (to our chagrin) that you couldn't make out the settee into a double without completely blocking the path from the v-berth to the galley. We are looking at yachtworld by way of a preliminary search and have noted several interesting candidates, several of which are full keel boats. Great reputation for heavy weather cruisers but just how bad would they sail under 'normal' PNW weather?
 
#4 ·
Dave:
I would warn you against lumping all full keel boats into the same performance basket.
And I will also warn you that in the PNW we don't consider 7 to 15 knots "light air". Here light air is 2 to 4 knots and we get a lot of it. Couple that with a 3 knots tide current and you can have a challenging few hours.

In light air wetted surface is your enemy and pretty much any full keel boat is going to have more wetted surface than a modern split appendage design. But the term "full keel" is used to describe a wide range of boats and there are full keels and all variations on that theme and some will have less wetted surface and more artfully shaped keel foils.

You should pay attention to the SA/D of the boats you consider. Horsepower is a huge help in light air as is overall height of the rig.
 
#35 ·
Dave:
I would warn you against lumping all full keel boats into the same performance basket.

In light air wetted surface is your enemy and pretty much any full keel boat is going to have more wetted surface than a modern split appendage design. But the term "full keel" is used to describe a wide range of boats and there are full keels and all variations on that theme and some will have less wetted surface and more artfully shaped keel foils.

You should pay attention to the SA/D of the boats you consider. Horsepower is a huge help in light air as is overall height of the rig.
I've owned two full keel older designs and one is a much better sailer in light air. The former had a SA/D of around 15, the later, nearly 18. Night and day in light air.

Another thing I learned from Bob, "Weight is the enemy". That one I use to advantage to get the most out of my full keeler in light air(I overloaded my first boat which made it even less of a light air boat).

Thanks Bob for these tips over the years, and you give your design experience in refreshingly few words, a real plus on the these forums.
 
#5 ·
The ones I come across out on the lake are pretty doggy. Island packet 465, CT 41 and the like. My old boat H37c was not light wind rocket but would easily out run the CT and others like it similarly sized. The 465 would walk away once wind speed hit 12-15 kts.
If you liked the 365 how about a 424? Might be a good compromise as all boats are in one way or the other.
 
#8 ·
Thus far our only sailing experience has been in Resurection Bay, Aialik Bay, Day Harbor and across the Gulf. We hope to VASTLY expand the scope of our experience once I retire.
 
#7 ·
We'll probably take a look at the P424 - there are apparently a couple in Anacortes. Engine access would have to be better than on the P365 - I didn't mention that one. On the 365 you have to lay on the galley floor, reach thru a hole in the back of the locker under the sink and feel blindly for the engine dipstick. Not a good incentive for doing regular maintenance. Changing the impeller on the backwards facing engine requires getting into the lazarette along with some pretty athletic contortions.
 
#9 ·
Around here, they post "Strong Wind Warnings" at 20 knots and most people stay home. :D

Listen to the Maestro and get as much sail as you can handle - trust me.
 
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#11 ·
Didn't mean to mislead. We are definitely NOT limiting our options to full keel boats. It's just that I have absolutely NO experience with that design and was hoping for comments/advice from fellow sailnetters. Our Omega was a FAST boat but, due probably as much to our inexperience as her design, was pretty spooky if the winds got above 15 knots and the seas built to anything over 3 foot. However, when the weather was more tame, she was REALLY fun to sail! The P365, on the other hand, handled two gales in our crossing without scaring us too badly but was at a disadvantage in any winds less than 8 knots.
 
#14 ·
I loved my cutter, the new boat (gulfstar 50 ketch) gets trucked here in 5 more days. So not sure on the ketch rig.I like the idea of the rig, but I also like to use light air sails (drifters spinnakers) so looking forward to mizzen staysails. You can make slower boats perform it's just more work and the ultimate performance is lower.

Did you use any on your 365( mizzen staysails ect)?
 
#15 ·
Ours was a straight ketch (vice a cutter-ketch) - hence no staysail. We used the mizzen occationally but, frankly (and I'm ashamed to admit) I suspect we flew the mizzen more for how it LOOKED rather than trying to squeeze more speed or balance the rig.
 
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#17 ·
:mad: Okay, What gives here??? Did somebody paint a big bullseye on Island Packet sailboats or what?:confused: It seems like every post asking "What kind of boat should I buy?" has someone making very disparaging comments about IPs. Mine will sail at 3 knots in 5 knots of breeze! One can state their opinion about various makes and models if they so choose; but it would lend to ones credibility to note that it is strictly an opinion based on little else but hearsay. There are many sailboats that provide great sailing characteristics and some that are not rated for "Category A Offshore Use." Intended usage of the vessel should be the main factor in decision making.:)
 
#20 · (Edited)
"Did somebody paint a big bullseye on Island Packet sailboats or what?"

Yes, Island Packet did when they chose the design approach that they did. Its simply a physics thing; huge amounts of wetted surface, a poorly shaped underbody, and foils, a dearth of sail area and an excessively inefficient rig proportion.

That is not hearsay, its just plain basic physics. And it is easy to quantify the relative impact of that design approach. When you look at the PHRF rating in any Region with light to moderate prevailing winds, the Island Packets are typically 60 to 90 seconds a mile slower than boats of an equal length, and 2 to 3 minutes a mile slower than more normal designs of an equal displacement. Those kind of number are huge difference in speed, and in cruising modes, slower boats generally do worse than their ratings might suggest. PHRF normally spots cruising boats a little time in racing mode, and so while these numbers may do Island Packet a 9-12 second disservice in racing mode but they clearly show that Island Packets are a bit doggie.

And that matches what most of us have observed out there on the water. In reality, my observations sailing IP's and observing 100's of them under sail for decades is that they really do not perform at the low end of the wind range.

While you may be able to crowd a large enough genoa on a Island Packet to close-reach at "3 knots in 5 knots" of true wind, that would result in an apparent wind of somewhere around 7 knots. In the same conditions a decent light air boat, i.e. one that is not a little doggie, without an oversized genoa, would be generating closer to 8 or 9 knots apparent wind in those same conditions and would be moving closer to 5 knots through the water, in other words doing close to the true wind speeds. And that is the precisely the point being made when people say, Island Packets are a little doggie in light air. But not only are they slow in light air, but they also make gobs of leeway compared to boats with more efficient keels.

In the end, what counts is you are satisfied with the performance of your boat, and that is a good thing for you. As such it should not matter to you when other speak of the relative capabilities of the IP's.

But when someone asks for a relative description of the performance of these boats and thier suitability for use in a predominantly light air venue, the alleged offshore capabilities of an Island Packet (I say 'alleged' since the A Offshore rating really does not really define the suitability of a boat for offshore use, just its likelihood of surviving out there) may be relevant for some, offshore characteristics were not the question being asked. What is relevant, is the observable light air performance, and IP's poor light air performance is easily observable by anyone who has sailed one in light air or seen them try to sail in light air.

Jeff
 
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#19 ·
I didn't mention any names because there are other threads on here that contain worse comments that yours. When I read your comment, it happened to be the proverbial "straw" that did the camel's back in.
One of the nicest boats that I sailed on was a Swan 68 but it would be a piece of crap on the Chesapeake. (could have something to do with its 12 foot draft.) OK, we all know that a Frers or S&S design Swan is not a piece of crap, its design is perfect for its intended usage.:)
 
#21 ·
It does seem it's human nature (at least true of the middle class?) to obtain that which is most impressive, but totally unsuited for the use or need of their immediate or nearby environment.

Examples
SUVs Totally impractical for more the a day trip.
Sports cars with 2 seats sitting in front of a 4 bedroom house.
Deep draft boats on Chesapeake Bay
Full Keel boats in light air regions.

Then there are the reverses
Shallow draft and spade rudders expected to do north Atlantic crossings.
SUVs done up as stretched limos
SUVs with extended cabs.
Hummers.

Fast is always compared with something that has nothing in common with another.
"My Vette is faster then your SUV. My fin keel is faster then your full keel."

Then everyone knows full keeled boats can't go in reverse under power. ( I don't know this)
 
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#23 ·
Didn't mean to start a gunfight over brands...

However, now that we've gone down that track...

@Jeff: In your experience, how would you rate an IP38 with a Tayana 37? There are several T37's in our geographic shopping area that look like they might be worth looking into.

@Seaduction: We did look at an IP38 on Oahu that we absolutely fell in love with. However, most of them are either on the East Coast or out of our price range.
 
#27 ·
So, not wanting to expose my ignorance too much, the lower the PHRF the better the boat will perform in light air? Is there a corrolation between the PHRF and Comfort Rating and Capsise Ratios? I've always sort of used them as the yardstick in comparing boats (as a starter at least).
 
#28 ·
Dave:
No, not really. The PHRF number will give you an indocation of a boats overall performance. There is no correlation between PHRF rating and comfort and capsize ratios (you guys get so obsessed with these numbers!).

If you really wanted to find a good light air boat using PHRF ratings you would have to gather a list of the different ratings for the same boats in different areas of the country. PHRF ratings will vary in different parts of the country.

For instance if a V40 rated 122 in Seattle and 132 in San Fran that would tell me the boat does better in Seattle's light winds compared to San Fran's heavy air. The lower the number the faster the boat.
 
#30 ·
Bob,

I'll have to admit, I'm a little linier in my thinking and, although I don't think I obsess over the numbers, with little actual experience and a very wide variance in the often anecdotal opinions out there, I do pay attention to them.

Lacking actual on-the-water experience I think the numbers give me a way of comparing apples to apples when looking at different models.

Incidentally, I always use the P365 and O36 as my benchmarks, comparing the various models with boats that I actually know...gives me an indication about the one I'm researching

V/R

Dave
 
#29 ·
Most race courses are windward leeward so the ratings tell you how well a given boat does on a straight up wind and back down course.
Also if you put better/bigger sails on a boat like the 365 it would perform better in lighter air. Large roach main, mizzen and dedicated light air sails drifter, mizzen stay sail, spinnakers.
 
#31 ·
Dave:
I agree with you. It's always best to use boats you know well as benchmarks. Numbers are only numbers. It bothers me that people rely so much on numbers that they can barely understand. I understand them and I am always willing to help.

ctl:
"Most race courses are windward leeward"

That is not correct. Most race couses are triangles and variations on triangles. I know. I have been racing for the last 50 years.

Oh, that is painful to admit.
 
#32 ·
Local weeknight/weekend races around here are just up down no reaching. Regional races they will change it up a little but the emphasis is still windward ability. Hence all the talk about pointing ability. Cruisers fire up the engine or wait. Pointing ability is important from a safety standpoint for cruisers but not to the degree of racers. Nobody wants to sail days on end bashing to windward unless its for the glory of the pickle dish lol.
Back on topic how does the Op make a comfortable cruiser sail to its best? What's a good compromise?
 
#34 ·
Here is a heavy full keeled boat in Puget sound.

What would the true wind be here Jeff_H?
There are many reasons the boat speed could be higher instantaneously. Momentum from a earlier gust or catching a wave are two I can think of off hand.

Not sure why we are hell bent on trying to prove Jeff_H wrong. Fighting a losing battle in this case.

There are many reasons to love our beautiful old long keeled boats but performance in light airs is not one of them.
 
#38 ·
"they will give you the confidence to get out there. "
I think that is very important Shane. I can't imagine sailing a boat I did not have confidence in. As a pal of mine once said, "Different boats for different folks".

Tom:
Thank you.
I'd try and use more words but I have this problem with typing and spelling. When my boys were young I gave them both the collected works of Jack London. I told them that Jack was the master at saying a lot with few words. He probably couldn't type either.
 
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