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  #11  
Old 07-12-2013
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

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  #12  
Old 07-12-2013
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
If there was an Ericson 38 we could charter for a day, we would. But there isn't. We even asked the broker if any of his clients would be willing to, for a fee, of course. He acted like he didn't even want to ask.

I've heard the E38 is tender off the start but stiffens up. Heeling doesn't phase me but I'm not so sure about the SO. When we were out on the Jeanneau 379 a few weeks ago in 12-18K winds, I thought I saw

I've been at the helm of a number of different boats and I can generally get a sense of them pretty quickly. I'd also like to feel her under power and hear the engine under load. Between being under sail and power, I can get an over sense of things and get a fairly good idea if the boat and I are going to be friends or lovers.

The broker said he'd ask. And I'm good with that. If the owner says no, we'll make do.

We saw an E34 - PS build - and liked it. That's what got us started on looking at Ericson. It will be interesting to see what the E38 is like.
Obviously you are asking too much of your broker

You might not find one in your backyard to charter but I managed to find two for charter in the US. If you seriously plan on spending 50K - 90K on a boat you are unsure of, then surely an investment in a fun vacation to try one out would not be asking all that much.

Maine Sailing Charters & Day Sailboat Charters | Northpoint Yacht Charters, Rockport, Maine

Northwest Sailing Charters ~ Cruise the San Juan Islands ~ Bellingham, WA ~ Crewed Vacations or Private Charters

I'm sure there are more than these two working the charter biz.
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  #13  
Old 07-12-2013
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

Julie, is this your broker (i.e., buyer's rep) or the seller's?

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the broker to start the engine while you're there to see the boat. Asking to go for a ride may be a bit more of a stretch. As has been said, you get that chance during the survey and sea trial.

Have you checked with the folks at Choosing an Ericson 38? They may be able to point you to some E38 owners in your area.
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Old 07-12-2013
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

Why would you want to do a sea trial without the surveyor there, hes really the expert about the systems on the boat not you? To get a "feel" for the boat? You cant really get that on a sea trial. You cant tell the difference between two boats on a 3 hour hour jaunt. You can see how the boats fits into the type of sailing you will do, but to feel the differences between two boats on a small sail on each. Sorry I dont think you can do that.

Do your research as was said...talk to other Erikson owners. Find out from people who sail the boats for years how they REALLY handle. Their strengths and weaknessess. Talk to Jennaeu owners to find out how they handle, their strengths and weaknesses.

Put your money down and youll get the sea trial and the survey at the same time. If I was selling the boat I would tall you that. Can you imagine how many people a boat seller would get just to take a ride and kick the tires, if they had this practice If its not a sound boat or you dont like it you still can walk away with your money back. What you are asking foir is not a usual practice IMHO.
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  #15  
Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimgo View Post
Julie, is this your broker (i.e., buyer's rep) or the seller's?

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the broker to start the engine while you're there to see the boat. Asking to go for a ride may be a bit more of a stretch. As has been said, you get that chance during the survey and sea trial.

Have you checked with the folks at Choosing an Ericson 38? They may be able to point you to some E38 owners in your area.
The broker started out as "ours" but then the owner contracted with him to sell the boat. So now I'd say the broker is really with the seller.

After we saw the E34 at the broker's yard, we researched the E38 probably more than most would. I've been over at the Ericson forum and asked a lot of questions, including who's in my area. We've read countless comments from owners and reviewers alike. If there's an article on the E38 we missed I'd be surprised.

Maybe some don't understand this but I get a lot out of feel. I can't explain it but when I'm on a boat or in a car or "one with" mechanical things, my feel senses give me a lot of feedback. Right or wrong, I've gone with that all my life and it's worked, for me.

The problem with getting all your information from others is trying to filter it to fit you. Like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, what may be perfect for one person may not be for you. The E38 has had a lot of great reviews from owners but didn't they buy the boat because they liked it? The pics I've seen don't give me the warm fuzzies but I'm not letting that override everything else I've learned about the boat.

Anyway, we'll see it next week and I'll know a lot more. And I'm not pushing for the sea trial.
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Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

They are good boats. I hope its in good condition. What are the common fail pounts to watch out for on E38s. If you like the "feel" of the boat and the layout ( that mast in the center of the salon will take some getting used to). The two in Md look good. The Kent Island one looks in the best condition with an updated engine, while to Serverna Park one has a new engine ( I have seen this one out sailing actually).

Dave
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  #17  
Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

Julie, the purpose of a sea trial is not to see how the boat handles. It is to see if there are any problems or defects that are not apparent at the dock, i.e. if the engine overheats under power, if water comes in from a loose keel, if the sails and rigging are working or perhaps blown out.

You can't tell how a boat handles from one sea trial anyway. How does it handle in flat seas? In fifteen knots? Or fifteen plus a six foot chop? Does it need to be reefed at 10 knots, or 16? You can't tell from a sea trial. Does it round up? Or balance? You can't tell, since the mast could be out of plumb, the sails out of trim, or blown out, or just not balanced properly. So trying to find out how a boat handles during a sea trial would be kind of pointless.

That leaves you with chartering and bumming rides, and most folks can only guess from reviews how which boats handle. You'll see used boat articles where owners discuss the handling, and a rare few boats that get praised for good handling. The rest, you have to try bumming rides (yes, that may often mean beercan racing crew) to actually experience the boats.

I know a boat that was generally very well mannered and nicely balanced, that was useless in a two foot chop in light wind. Bow slammed into each wave and the boat lost all momentum. Put it in heavier winds and waters, and it rode nicely. Go figure.

But a sea trial? Is to see what's wrong, not what's right. Of course everything is negotiable, but few brokers or sellers are going to let you go for a test ride to see how it fits.
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  #18  
Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

For any production boat, you can always research their general sailing qualities. A good naval architect could probably describe them, just by looking at the drawings. The finer points are adjustable, by rigging tensions and sail selection, not to mention trim. The finer points can not be assessed in a sea trial and as several have mentioned, you can't possibly have multiple conditions anyway.

I think it took me two full seasons with my current boat to really understand what makes her tick in all conditions. At first, I thought she was real trouble sailing deep downwind. I almost bought a new sail for it. After a bit, I've now got the nuance down. If I had tried to assess that in a sea trial alone, I wonder if I would have questioned the purchase, rather than give it time to work it out.

In the standard marine purchase contract, the buyer holds all the cards. You must give a down payment to show good faith, but can walk for any reason whatsoever. I've walked when I just didn't like the quantity of little squawks, even though the seller would fix them all. But, you must actually have good faith. It's a small community and you don't want the reputation of being a tire kicker that never buys.

Its hard to assess from afar whether your broker is all that good or whether they are just being careful with their time. If you don't buy, they don't eat.
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  #19  
Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

The seller and buyer can structure the deal anyway they choose; the brokers are agents who serve the principals, not the other way around.

I have had the privilege of working with some incredibly smart, saavy, and successful folks, who know how to use resources and receive good professional advice from all angles. They understand this basic tenet of contracting, whereas the ordinary Joe Blow thinks he has to do things the way they are always done. Whereas a successful person will ask, "How can we structure this to meet every one's essential interests at each stage?", an ordinary person will ask, "Is this the way this is supposed to be done?" Who cares how its is usually done? All that creates is expectations for those who are methodical and not creative. Why don't you structure the deal so you get what you want and the seller gets what he wants; the brokers be damned.

Don't let the broker lead you around by the nose, Julie. Set this up the way you want to. Don't get attached to any particular outcome. You are dealing with a commodity. Explain to all parties how your proposed contract serves their interests.
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

James makes a good point, but it would work better if you were dealing with the counterparty directly. When an intermediary brings forth your proposal, it needs to be simple or in writing from you. They never repeat your sentiment as you would. Did you ever play the grade school game where the kid in the first chair whispers a word to the kid behind him and on and on until the last kid says it out loud and its never the same?

The trouble with offers in writing is you can't react, you have to spend negotiating chips you don't yet know you need in your written offer. I've even seen written offers that raised unnecessary concern, as tone is never transmitted. Just like here! Even in this case, the intermediary is going to be queried before you. For example, they would likely be asked "should I expect to provide a sea trial without an offer or contract"? The intermediary would most likely say, no.

The intermediary does want to get a deal done, so isn't necessarily working against you. However, they have to remain credible. If you were asked about the prevalence of a contract prior to sea trial, you would answer a different question. You would proactively answer why they should, not why they should not. The broker has to answer the question directly, since they are being asked about their experience.

I always prefer to negotiate directly, whenever possible.
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