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  #21  
Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

We've all discussed the traditional approach.

But if a boat is in the water, much depends on the seller. I've given sea trials when trying to sell a boat. I've sold boats without sea trials (good survey and limited time).

And I've gotten price adjustments after trial when some failure was noted.

And if there is some aspect of handling that you want to know about, schedule the sea trial according to the weather; on my current boat I was a little concerned about how she would come about when it was rough and so I moved the sea trial to a very breezy day, something that didn't thrill the PO. But I liked how she handled rough and and it sealed the deal.
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  #22  
Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

Go get on the boat first to look around. You have already said you are not thrilled with the pictures. If you like it in person then move forward. The owner may be there (request this) and you could discuss a sea trial directly with them. But some brokers do not like this and get bitchy others have no problem with it.
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  #23  
Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
I understand taking a boat out on the water isn't the same as taking a car for a test drive. On the other hand, making an offer on a boat that you have no idea how it handles takes away a valuable piece of information for the buyer and could deny the seller a better offer if it's a good performer and in good shape.
Its the only way they can sell poorly performing older boats.

If my boat was for sale anyone, tire kickers incl, can come do a sail test because I know my boat rips at sea.

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  #24  
Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

If you have a very specific worry it may be possible to explore that first.
If the boat is in the water.
1. Do your walk through yourself.
2. Hire your surveyor and do the seatrial
3. Let the surveyor complete the in water survey
4. Haul and have the surveyor complete the out of water survey.

This way if the sea trial is most important to you and it fails you should be able to send the surveyor home early.

If the boat on the hard you can do the same basic thing. Have your surveyor plan his day so the sea trial is earlier rather than later.
It is not unusual to have to work around the yards launching and hauling schedule so the surveyor should be flexible.
If you only need the surveyor for half the survey and he doesn't have to write up the report the bill should be reduced.
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  #25  
Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
They are good boats. I hope its in good condition. What are the common fail pounts to watch out for on E38s. If you like the "feel" of the boat and the layout ( that mast in the center of the salon will take some getting used to). The two in Md look good. The Kent Island one looks in the best condition with an updated engine, while to Serverna Park one has a new engine ( I have seen this one out sailing actually).

Dave
We like those two E38s best too. I'm using them as comps, taking into consideration their trucking costs to get here. Unless the local E38 blows us away, we're still planning on making the trip out east. (We've got a friend in CT who is now expecting us.) There are other makes we want to see and selection locally is very limited.

The one thing I have read over and over is the E38s don't do well reaching and running in heavy winds. That concerns me. I've had a lot of fun on those points of sail and if I had my choice sailing on a close reach or on a broad reach when the wind kicks up, I'd take the latter any day. But, from what I've read, the E38 is far better sailing the former than the latter. One comment said if you have an autopilot, running and reaching aren't so bad on the E38. Sounds like she's hard to control.

This will be our first boat and maybe our last. My unfamilarity about the process may work to my advantage, in some respects, because I have a list of criteria I want to include in the sales contract. I'm also ready to walk if I feel I'm being bullied. I don't expect that though.

My father was an attorney and besides being raised on trial he drilled into my head the importance of CYA. I have a copy of the YBAA sales contract I've already read through several times just so I'm familiar with it. My dad also drilled the importance of knowledge.

I'm not expecting the contract expertise of my father to come down from above and fill me with legal brilliance that ultimately result in my sales contract setting precedent for all future contracts. But I am going to ask for what I feel is needed and I am going to read everything thoroughly before signing on the dotted line.

Still, I know I'll have to be on guard if the warm fuzzies kick in and the broker senses a weakened prey. Not a fan of being eaten by a shark.

I'm taking the advise here and putting it into a Word file to help me through this part of the process. I really appreciate the help. Thank you!
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  #26  
Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
The one thing I have read over and over is the E38s don't do well reaching and running in heavy winds. That concerns me. !
I dont remember exactly what you are doing with the boat, but a tropical circumnavigation is mostly reaching and running in Force 5 or Force 6 winds (not the Force 4 the pilot charts say!)
So you do a lot at 20 to 25 knots up the bum...

I would want to sail the boat in the conditions expected before contract.

Look at my video for a pretty good idea of a trade winds passage

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  #27  
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
James makes a good point, but it would work better if you were dealing with the counterparty directly.
I didn't know that. I thought the broker would be the intermediary, like it or not. I'd love to have the owner there and talk to them and maybe get a feel about their relationship with the boat. One boat we saw a few weeks ago, the owner was there but quickly left when the broker showed up with us. So I thought this was SOP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctl411 View Post
Go get on the boat first to look around. You have already said you are not thrilled with the pictures. If you like it in person then move forward. The owner may be there (request this) and you could discuss a sea trial directly with them. But some brokers do not like this and get bitchy others have no problem with it.
We haven't seen any pics of the local boat but have seen over a hundred of the E38-200. I'm just not getting the warm fuzzies. It's a beautiful boat and has great reviews. I think it's just something with me. I recently saw a Swan 371 that was in our price range (kinda ) and I just melted. The flush decks, winches everywhere, that thoroughbred racer look. Back in the 70s and 80s I would drool over Swans and Baltics and dream about racing. Even though all I ever did was club racing, I loved it! And when not racing I'm constantly trimming the sails, checking the telltales, and trying to hit maximum speed. I was even doing that a few weeks ago on that Jeanneau we went out on. Maybe it's in my blood.

Those racing thoroughbreds aren't practical for me today. I know that. But my heart doesn't care. Even though one of those may kill me, I'd go out with a smile on my face. I'm doing my best to keep those crazy emotions at bay.

Mark, back when my dad has his boat in Chicago, we'd make an annual trip up to Mackinac Island. He'd take it up there and I'd take it back, or vice-versa. We'd get all kinds of weather but only once did the weather keep us from making a planned passage. We had planned to cross the Lake Michigan from Pentwater to Milwaukee. The winds were 20-30K. We set sail for Milwaukee on a beam reach and by the time we were about 5+ miles out, the seas had built to 12'. A couple of aboard were getting seasick. So I made the turn south and out the wind at our back.

The point is we had deadlines to make (most all work related) and since I'm the only one retired, I expect to have the same when we make long trips, that I know we will. So the boat has to be ready for all kinds of Great Lakes' conditions. If you've never sailed the Great Lakes, the waves here get very steep, very fast. A boat that has difficulty when the waves are astern would be a much bigger problem on the Great Lakes than the ocean. Maybe that's why there are so few E38s around here but plenty on the coasts. Of course it could just be sheer numbers.

Anyway, we have to find out more about the reaching and running qualities of the boat and how it handles the Great Lakes.
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  #28  
Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

I've been looking at Morgans.. OMG there are, it seems hundreds of them in FLA. (not that i'm going there to find any)
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  #29  
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

Well with the Ericson 38 keep in mind there were 2 keels offered. The deep one was supposed to be the more popular even though it was not the standard keel. I have not heard any comments that the deep keel is excessively tender. Mars Keels offers a bulb that will bolt on the bottom of the keel and adds about 800 pounds way down at the bottom without increasing draft much, from what I have read is that they stiffen up the boat well. I have even read of someone with a deep keel adding it and cutting off about a foot of the keel. He was very happy with it. I think any lighter weight shallow-ish keeled boat with such a large sail plan is going to be at least initially tender. I think in order to get an older boat like this that is good in light winds you will likely have to put up with a bit of tenderness. I have not heard that the tenderness really is detrimental to the end performance. For me it seems to be a good trade off.

I am trying to look at a few, and even tried to make a site unseen offer on one but the broker delayed the offer, saying I should take a look first and it sold first. This one was very low priced and had tons of new equipment. It was a project almost completed, but for some reason (I believe health or death) they sold it at $13,000. Another one I have tried to see, the guy said he is not showing it as he has someone "interested" in it. I asked if they have put a deposit down or an accepted offer and he said no they had not. I don't understand why someone would not at least show it unless he really does not want to sell it, and it has been on the market for years. So either he is not interested in selling or has no clue as to how to sell a boat.
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  #30  
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Re: Sea Trial Only After Sales Contract?

I like to tweak all the time also making a old cruiser run with the newer boats is fun. I used to sail against Pat all the time on his old Ale 33 (old for Pat) I would have to work harder spinns, drifters ect. So you can play with the cruiser type boats. I had a ridged vang, Cunningham and put way oversize roach main on it. I told the sail maker I didn't care about "ratings" give me speed. He even put battens in my second stay sail to give it roach. The difference is I don't have all the checks and running backs like the racers, so I didn't need crew to sail. I sailed solo most Friday afternoons, and hope to do the same with the new to me Gulf 50.
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