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  #41  
Old 07-17-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
I once was interested in a Pearson 35. Problem was the coach roof was warped by the roof stepped mast bearing down on it. That was an expensive problem to fix. Yet not reflected in the price. "Make an offer and let the surveyor figure it out." OK i do that and he tells me I got good news and i got bad news. The good is that the oak block under the compression post is toast. And that can be fixed. The bad - the cabin roof is permanently torqued so the boat is junk, do i get my $1000 survey fee back?
I'm not sure I understand your complaint here. You saw the boat. You knew there was something wrong with the coach roof, even though at this point you did not know exactly what. You made your offer. I assume that you made a lower offer than you would have if you had not known there was something wrong with the coach roof. You get the survey and find the boat is not acceptable.

Sounds to me like it worked exactly like it is supposed to. Yes, you're out the cost of the survey, but how else could you find out that the roof was not repairable? The point of the survey is to find out if there is anything significant, not already accounted for in the price, that you cannot tell through your own careful inspection. And in this case you found that out.

Or is it that you are upset with the seller for not telling you ahead of time that the boat was junk? If he didn't know then you can hardly blame him for that. If he did know then he is another one of the LMDs from the subject line.

Again, I guess I'm just not sure how it is that you think it is supposed to work.
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  #42  
Old 07-17-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
That's a good point. My take, generally speaking, is that a home sale is a done deal for more reasons than the house itself. The neighborhood, location, the grounds, school systems etc. Buyers are unlikely to make an offer on a house where they believe a major walk away issue exists. Yet in boatdom, this is the way it's done. Making an offer on a boat, I don't want to be out a $1000 or more just to find out the boat is a pass.

I once was interested in a Pearson 35. Problem was the coach roof was warped by the roof stepped mast bearing down on it. That was an expensive problem to fix. Yet not reflected in the price. "Make an offer and let the surveyor figure it out." OK i do that and he tells me I got good news and i got bad news. The good is that the oak block under the compression post is toast. And that can be fixed. The bad - the cabin roof is permanently torqued so the boat is junk, do i get my $1000 survey fee back?

Not likely!
You are buying a used boat without a warranty so there is always risk.

In your Pearson example, suppose you had spent the $1,000 on a survey prior to making an offer and then the seller rejects what you offer him? You donít get the survey money back.

Suppose after you pay for the survey but before a contract is ratified another buyer comes along and offers the seller a higher price? You donít get the survey money back then either.

These contracts are supposed to protect the rights of both parties as best as can be foreseen.
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  #43  
Old 07-17-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

Mike-
"Maroon" comes from an old Daffy Duck line in a Looney Tune. Whether Zee remembers watching it or not, Daffy said it first. Works for me, the maroons never figure it out.

Rob-
Year after year, the Nooze do surveys on private used car ads, like in the classifieds. And year after year, they keep finding the same Astounding Nooze, that 90% of the ads are frauds and lies, often from unlicensed "brokers" not private sellers at all. SO, why should the boat market be any better?

If you see somethign interesting, send 'em an email and make sure the footer says "Warning: Making false claims or intentionally failing to disclose known defects may be prosecuted as criminal fraud resulting in monetary fines, loss of business license, and time in prison."

You'll probably never hear from 90% of them again, and that's a good thing. Other than that there's not much you can do, except carry a wrench and open the seacocks on the boats that are mis-represented. You'll be doing everyone a favor.

Just one man's opinion. (Wanna borrow a wrench?)
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  #44  
Old 07-17-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by CheckedOutRob View Post
Wow -Thanks to everybody for your great insights!! I think many people have been in my shoes. JulieMor you have some wise words and you seem to know finance! I've taken everyones input and now am comforted by the fact that I'm not off my rocker. Yes, I'm a serious buyer. I realize that my purchase price of apx. $170 will likely need another $50k all said and done before I'm ready to cross oceans.

I guess it may just take a LOT LONGER than I was expecting. More than the year I've put in. I think another poster is correct in that you have to be in the right place at the right time and be ready with cash in the correct market. Ive got the cash. In this market it seems boats would likely be neglected due to distressed owners making up the bulk of sellers. The corollary would be a great market with well maintained boats at commensurately higher prices.

I've tried but found it almost impossible to deal with a seller directly. Brokers are very protective of any identifying info. I've found a few boats (I've walked the docks in several cities) and when I find a boat I have left a message in a plastic bag tied to their lifeline. No luck there so far. Asking other boaters on the dock around the marina about the owner usually gets nowhere. Most folks with boats nearby usually say "I never see them here". The dockmaster will not reveal any info for legal reasons.

I've asked several brokers to go through their past clients and find someone with the boats on my target list and ask if they might sell. That has not come up with any boats.

Know of anyone out there with a Nordic 44? Norseman 447? Passport 40? If they have cruising gear on board I'll make them a sweet offer :-)
I sure hope you used a different tone in the notes you left, otherwise you are guaranteed not to get a response.

You can look at it in several ways. I'd still put an offer out, but I'd lower it with what it would cost to get it ALL up to a level you like. Most will refuse, and yes, it takes time and yes it is frustrating.
But, you might find a desperate seller and get it for a steal.

Boats are NEVER perfect. They always need some work. It can always be improved. The only really good boats are not for sale, or were just sold.
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  #45  
Old 07-17-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
I'm not sure I understand your complaint here. You saw the boat. You knew there was something wrong with the coach roof, even though at this point you did not know exactly what. You made your offer. I assume that you made a lower offer than you would have if you had not known there was something wrong with the coach roof. You get the survey and find the boat is not acceptable.

Sounds to me like it worked exactly like it is supposed to. Yes, you're out the cost of the survey, but how else could you find out that the roof was not repairable? The point of the survey is to find out if there is anything significant, not already accounted for in the price, that you cannot tell through your own careful inspection. And in this case you found that out.

Or is it that you are upset with the seller for not telling you ahead of time that the boat was junk? If he didn't know then you can hardly blame him for that. If he did know then he is another one of the LMDs from the subject line.

Again, I guess I'm just not sure how it is that you think it is supposed to work.
I wasn't upset at all. Just faced with the ass backwards world of boat buying in the blind.

Actually I did know what was wrong with roof. And i knew the mast compression block was fixable. What i didn't know was how much damage was done to the roof and other structures from this neglected repair.

But to clear it up for you, here is my thinking. Paying someone money to tell me if this boat could be fixed makes as much sense to me as finding a crashed damaged car, with an asking price that ignores the damage, and then paying someone to tell me if it can be repaired. Who does that?

If we don't do it with cars and other large ticket items why are we doing it with boats?

As i said this is my opinion, nothing more.

BTW, i passed on making an offer as it was too much of a roll of the dice. Small repairs, minor blistering, normal wear and tear I'm good with. Major structural issues, not so much. I wasn't looking for a project boat. As well the broker in this case did his client no good in indicating low ball offers wouldn't be entertained. OK, at that point I was tempted to low ball him just to bust him, but at this point we were no longer dealing with reality. Time to walk and i did.
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Last edited by TJC45; 07-17-2013 at 10:06 PM.
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  #46  
Old 07-17-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by sailpower View Post
You are buying a used boat without a warranty so there is always risk.

In your Pearson example, suppose you had spent the $1,000 on a survey prior to making an offer and then the seller rejects what you offer him? You donít get the survey money back.

Suppose after you pay for the survey but before a contract is ratified another buyer comes along and offers the seller a higher price? You donít get the survey money back then either.

These contracts are supposed to protect the rights of both parties as best as can be foreseen.
I've never contracted a survey before the offer was accepted. The buyer backing out of an accepted offer would create liabilty on his part for my cost. I've never had this happen. Not even aware if it can happen.
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  #47  
Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
Paying someone money to tell me if this boat could be fixed makes as much sense to me as finding a crashed damaged car, with an asking price that ignores the damage, and then paying someone to tell me if it can be repaired. Who does that?
Everyone who doesn't have the expertise to know for themselves how much the repairs will cost, or if they are possible.

For example, I once bought a collectors car that had serious engine problems. I made an offer based on my guess of what repairs would cost, but made the offer contingent on a mechanic checking it over. Once the mechanic told me exactly what the repairs would require (a whole new engine) I revised my offer based on that. In the end, I bought the car.

I have done the exact same when buying a house. Offer based on what I know, contingent on inspection. When the inspection revealed some unknowns the offer was modified.

Honestly, I don't know how else you think it COULD work.

The comment about "asking price that ignores the damage" is irrelevant. The seller can ask whatever they want. I can offer whatever I want. My offer will be based on what I know about what I'm buying (regardless of whether that is a house, a car, or a boat), and on what I consider it to be worth. It will NOT be based on what the seller is asking. The survey/inspection will inform me about things that I don't know.

So now I'm beginning to wonder, is it that you assume you have to offer 10% off of the sellers asking price (or some other number like that), rather than ignoring the asking price and offering what you think the item is worth? You keep bringing up what the seller is asking, and how they don't want to account for the needed repairs. Who cares? Again, the seller can ask whatever they want. I'm only going to offer what I think it is worth, taking into account what I already know, and contingent on having someone who is more knowledgeable than me tell me what I don't know. This is not backwards. This is exactly how it should, and does, work for almost all big-ticket items--cars, houses, boats, airplanes, etc.
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  #48  
Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Everyone who doesn't have the expertise to know for themselves how much the repairs will cost, or if they are possible.

For example, I once bought a collectors car that had serious engine problems. I made an offer based on my guess of what repairs would cost, but made the offer contingent on a mechanic checking it over. Once the mechanic told me exactly what the repairs would require (a whole new engine) I revised my offer based on that. In the end, I bought the car.

I have done the exact same when buying a house. Offer based on what I know, contingent on inspection. When the inspection revealed some unknowns the offer was modified.

Honestly, I don't know how else you think it COULD work.

The comment about "asking price that ignores the damage" is irrelevant. The seller can ask whatever they want. I can offer whatever I want. My offer will be based on what I know about what I'm buying (regardless of whether that is a house, a car, or a boat), and on what I consider it to be worth. It will NOT be based on what the seller is asking. The survey/inspection will inform me about things that I don't know.

So now I'm beginning to wonder, is it that you assume you have to offer 10% off of the sellers asking price (or some other number like that), rather than ignoring the asking price and offering what you think the item is worth? You keep bringing up what the seller is asking, and how they don't want to account for the needed repairs. Who cares? Again, the seller can ask whatever they want. I'm only going to offer what I think it is worth, taking into account what I already know, and contingent on having someone who is more knowledgeable than me tell me what I don't know. This is not backwards. This is exactly how it should, and does, work for almost all big-ticket items--cars, houses, boats, airplanes, etc.
Denver i think we are missing each other on this one.

If the mast problem had done serious damage to the hull, hull/keel joint, deck hull joint, the deck, the mast, the hull liner, the cost to fix all these items could exceed the value of the boat. That being the case, should I have offered zero? Damage to all these areas was within the realm of possibility, which is why i walked away from this one.

To my point, it makes no sense to have to make offers in the blind, and then pay someone to tell you you need to walk away from this one. The non disclosure on the part of sellers/brokers, IMO, borders on fraudulent behavior. Instead of telling you what they already know, they tell you to figure it out for yourself. There should be disclosure up front. With that disclosure an informed buying decision can be made.
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  #49  
Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
To my point, it makes no sense to have to make offers in the blind, and then pay someone to tell you you need to walk away from this one. The non disclosure on the part of sellers/brokers, IMO, borders on fraudulent behavior. Instead of telling you what they already know, they tell you to figure it out for yourself. There should be disclosure up front. With that disclosure an informed buying decision can be made.
I'm COMPLETELY with Denver on this one. You'll never know everything that could possibly be wrong, nor will you know exactly what it will cost to fix it. I had a very, very good survey - but the estimates I got to fix the problems (from everyone involved) were low. And there were other problems no one, not even the surveyor could catch (based on how typical "non-invasive" surveys are done). So it's all going to cost me a fair amount more than I'd planned for. C'est un bateau!

Now, if the seller/broker is intentionally withholding information - and you can prove it - then you'd have cause to go after them for your costs (and maybe more). Otherwise, you do it just like Denver laid out.
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Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
To my point, it makes no sense to have to make offers in the blind, and then pay someone to tell you you need to walk away from this one. The non disclosure on the part of sellers/brokers, IMO, borders on fraudulent behavior.
Okay, so I was right back when I asked if your complaint was that the seller didn't tell you about this. Some sellers, as has been mentioned, really are LMDs, just like in the subject line of this thread. Seems maybe you ran into one.

Some will tell you what they know about what is wrong with a boat. Whether they tell you or not, though, it is still caveat emptor.

Some on this forum have suggested that you ask the seller to sign a statement saying that he/she has disclosed all known defects. Can't hurt to ask, but even if you do, it is STILL incumbent on you to make your own inspection and maybe pay a surveyor. The seller might actually not know about a defect, or he might (gasp!) lie about not knowing.

In any case, this is certainly not backwards from the way other big-ticket items are sold. It is, in fact, exactly the same as the way other big-ticket items are sold. I don't think we're missing each other on this so much as you seem to be expecting something that is just unrealistic. That is, that you should never have to hire a surveyor, because the seller will always know everything that is wrong with his boat, how much repairs will cost, and will be absolutely honest about telling you all of this.

And if I'm wrong, and you actually aren't hoping for this unrealistic scenario, then I do not understand how you can consider it unreasonable or "backwards" to hire a surveyor to help you with your due diligence. The whole process just seems perfectly natural and proper to me exactly the way it is.
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