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  #51  
Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
I've never contracted a survey before the offer was accepted. The buyer backing out of an accepted offer would create liabilty on his part for my cost. I've never had this happen. Not even aware if it can happen.
Sorry. I guess I am confused about what you are saying is backwards.

As you state, you make an offer based on what you see then once accepted go to survey. If the survey doesn’t work out to your satisfaction and the seller won’t budge then you are free to reject the boat but will be out the survey expense. Also, if you don’t like what you see or suspect then you don’t make the offer in the first place. Do we agree that this is the norm and not “backwards?”

In the Pearson case you said that you decided not to make an offer based on your inspection and concerns. Are you saying that the problem is the perceived lack of full disclosure? If so, I would suggest that the system isn’t backwards but rather, as always, it is buyer beware.

It’s possible that the seller didn’t know anything else was wrong if in fact there was. It's also possible that he was dishonest. Different states do have recourse in the case of non-disclosure but isn’t that a separate issue from the offer/survey process?

Last edited by sailpower; 07-18-2013 at 10:43 AM.
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  #52  
Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

Any newbie entering the boat buying process reading this thread will come away with this:
1. Caveat emptor
2. Caveat emptor
3. Take out your checkbook and start writing checks.

In other words, "A boat is a hole in the water into which you pour money."

I did a Google Image search of that saying and up came pictures of hundreds of boats.
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  #53  
Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

Denver here is where we are missing each other - using your classic car example, you were going to buy that car regardless of the problem. in fact the problem, if anything gave you negotiating leverage. The car has value regardless of the problem. And it could be rehabbed, so to speak. You knew up front that the engine had a serious problem and that in its self was not a deal killer. Any costs associated with determining the extent of the problem, equal more leverage in your favor in the deal's final outcome. IOW, no matter what the problem, you are coming out on top. There is no negative financial consequense to your buying decision. And the truth is, you and the seller agreed UPFRONT that there was an issue. And that issue played a large roll in your intial offer.

Not so on a boat that fails an inspection with a walk away problem. There is a financial consequense to the buyer when this happens.

Here is where we differ- Many boats have such serious hidden defects that they are not only not worth the asking price, but any price. This Pearson was but just one example. The boat posted by the OP another.


That i was asked to put in an offer and spend money on a junk boat, just as the OP did do, isn't because all owners are lying DBs. it's because that's how the boat buying process works.

Last edited by TJC45; 07-18-2013 at 11:58 AM.
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  #54  
Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
Denver here is where we are missing each other - using your classic car example, you were going to buy that car regardless of the problem.
No, that's not true. The "survey" I had done on the car revealed something I didn't know. I told the seller he had to come down further on the price if he wanted to sell it to me. He did. We made the deal.

This is exactly--EXACTLY!--the way a boat survey works. If you find out something you don't know about it's back to the negotiating table. You may be able to make a deal, or you may not. But now you have more information than you did before. Information that you could not have gotten without paying someone more knowledgeable than yourself to take a look at whatever it is that you're buying.

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Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
IOW, no matter what the problem, you are coming out on top. There is no negative financial consequense to your buying decision. And the truth is, you and the seller agreed UPFRONT that there was an issue.
And once again, absolutely not true. The seller didn't agree to anything. He insisted, in fact, that the engine was not that bad and only needed a tune-up. I told him I wasn't going to buy the car without having a mechanic (at my expense, obviously) check out the engine carefully.

He could still have insisted on the original price, the deal would have fallen through, and I would have been out the cost of the mechanic's time. Once again, EXACTLY the way a boat survey/purchase works.

In addition, the mechanic not only checked the engine, he also looked over the suspension and checked the transmission. It was entirely possible, had he found significant issues with these other things, that it would have been a "walk away" for me. There are plenty of cars out there that "have such serious hidden defects that they are not only not worth the asking price, but any price." That's why we have auto junk yards, after all.

I chose to spend some of my own money to make sure about the car. I had no guarantee that the mechanic would find anything, or that he would not find something that made the car a "walk away," or that the seller would agree to further negotiations if the mechanic did find something.

And yet, one more time, this is EXACTLY how buying a boat works. It is EXACTLY how buying an airplane works. And it is EXACTLY how buying a house works. All of which, by the way, can have serious hidden defects that make them a "walk away." The boat buying process is not "backwards" in any regard. It works just like buying any other big-ticket item.

No offense, honestly, but it is beginning to sound like you're just pissed off because you think the seller knew that the boat was junk and didn't admit it. That's a whole different issue than whether or not the boat buying process is backwards. Or maybe you're annoyed that you weren't able to tell how bad the problem with the boat was yourself, without paying for a survey. Again, a whole different issue than whether or not the boat buying process is backwards.

The boat buying process is not backwards. In fact, it is almost identical to the buying process for any big-ticket item.
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I'm COMPLETELY with Denver on this one. You'll never know everything that could possibly be wrong, nor will you know exactly what it will cost to fix it. I had a very, very good survey - but the estimates I got to fix the problems (from everyone involved) were low. And there were other problems no one, not even the surveyor could catch (based on how typical "non-invasive" surveys are done). So it's all going to cost me a fair amount more than I'd planned for. C'est un bateau!

Now, if the seller/broker is intentionally withholding information - and you can prove it - then you'd have cause to go after them for your costs (and maybe more). Otherwise, you do it just like Denver laid out.
Smack, i agree that noone knows everything and that even the most competent surveyor could miss some things or under estimate the cost to repair. Not at issue. Not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the order of business. In the boat buying world it is offer - disclosure. It should be disclosure - offer. How can you bid on something without knowing it's true condition? Bidding on something without knowing it's true condition is bidding in the blind. In some arena's like bidding on foreclosed homes bidding in the blind is the way it's done. Step up, roll the dice. Usually placing uninformed bids is a formula for financial disaster.

This is not the way it is done in other arenas of large ticket sales. From EBay to the Manheim Auto auction it is full disclosure up front. (BTW, dealers who misrepresent or omit material facts about vehicle condition at Manheim are sanctioned up to and including being barred. Ebay does the same) Buyers are reasonably assured as to the condition of the items they are buying. Bids are made relying on that information. IOW, disclosure then bid, not the other way around.
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  #56  
Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
Smack, i agree that noone knows everything and that even the most competent surveyor could miss some things or under estimate the cost to repair. Not at issue. Not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the order of business. In the boat buying world it is offer - disclosure. It should be disclosure - offer. How can you bid on something without knowing it's true condition? Bidding on something without knowing it's true condition is bidding in the blind. In some arena's like bidding on foreclosed homes bidding in the blind is the way it's done. Step up, roll the dice. Usually placing uninformed bids is a formula for financial disaster.

This is not the way it is done in other arenas of large ticket sales. From EBay to the Manheim Auto auction it is full disclosure up front. (BTW, dealers who misrepresent or omit material facts about vehicle condition at Manheim are sanctioned up to and including being barred. Ebay does the same) Buyers are reasonably assured as to the condition of the items they are buying. Bids are made relying on that information. IOW, disclosure then bid, not the other way around.
The problem is that the seller cannot disclose what he does not know.

It takes a professional such as a surveyor, rigger or diesel mechanic to find certain types of problems.

TJ, no offense, but how long have you been around boats? How many boats have you bought/sold?

When I sold my last boat, the surveyor found (minor) things that I was not aware of. In fact it is very, very unusual for a survey to come out entirely without findings.

You should not be too pissed off on spending $1K on a survey that made you walk, how much would it have cost you in the end if you had bought the vessel?
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  #57  
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
No, that's not true. The "survey" I had done on the car revealed something I didn't know. I told the seller he had to come down further on the price if he wanted to sell it to me. He did. We made the deal.

This is exactly--EXACTLY!--the way a boat survey works. If you find out something you don't know about it's back to the negotiating table. You may be able to make a deal, or you may not. But now you have more information than you did before. Information that you could not have gotten without paying someone more knowledgeable than yourself to take a look at whatever it is that you're buying.


And once again, absolutely not true. The seller didn't agree to anything. He insisted, in fact, that the engine was not that bad and only needed a tune-up. I told him I wasn't going to buy the car without having a mechanic (at my expense, obviously) check out the engine carefully.

He could still have insisted on the original price, the deal would have fallen through, and I would have been out the cost of the mechanic's time. Once again, EXACTLY the way a boat survey/purchase works.

In addition, the mechanic not only checked the engine, he also looked over the suspension and checked the transmission. It was entirely possible, had he found significant issues with these other things, that it would have been a "walk away" for me. There are plenty of cars out there that "have such serious hidden defects that they are not only not worth the asking price, but any price." That's why we have auto junk yards, after all.

I chose to spend some of my own money to make sure about the car. I had no guarantee that the mechanic would find anything, or that he would not find something that made the car a "walk away," or that the seller would agree to further negotiations if the mechanic did find something.

And yet, one more time, this is EXACTLY how buying a boat works. It is EXACTLY how buying an airplane works. And it is EXACTLY how buying a house works. All of which, by the way, can have serious hidden defects that make them a "walk away." The boat buying process is not "backwards" in any regard. It works just like buying any other big-ticket item.

No offense, honestly, but it is beginning to sound like you're just pissed off because you think the seller knew that the boat was junk and didn't admit it. That's a whole different issue than whether or not the boat buying process is backwards. Or maybe you're annoyed that you weren't able to tell how bad the problem with the boat was yourself, without paying for a survey. Again, a whole different issue than whether or not the boat buying process is backwards.

The boat buying process is not backwards. In fact, it is almost identical to the buying process for any big-ticket item.
1. not pissed off at all. The seller had to know the boat was junk. Just frustrated that he was Ok with me spending my money to figure out what he already knew. How could i be mad at him? he was following the time honored imbedded process.
2. I don't know who you buy your aircraft from but i've bought more than my share planes and helicopters. None of those deals worked like a boat deal. ( was in the biz for about ten years)
3. I've also sold more than my share of planes and helicopters and each was offered with full disclosure. Including two helicopters with damage histories. Wanna make an offer, here is what you are bidding on - everything I know listed up front.
4. Same with the boats i've sold. Full disclosure. I took a 5k hit to the normal market value when i sold my Boston Whaler last year. The boat was equipped with an Evinrude motor from the Ficht fuel injection era. That engine never missed a beat, but it put OMC out of business. The engine's bad rep has faded into internet history, but i put it up front and center. I don't need someone calling me a month after the deal is done telling me i cheated them via non disclosure. Just not who i am. The 5k it cost me is more than worth my peace of mind. But i'll tell ya, i see plenty of these engines on boats for sale and not a word about what they are. Why? because that's the assbackwards way the boat selling bisuiness works! let the buyer figure it out, or not.

Last edited by TJC45; 07-18-2013 at 03:13 PM.
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  #58  
Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by jorgenl View Post
The problem is that the seller cannot disclose what he does not know.

It takes a professional such as a surveyor, rigger or diesel mechanic to find certain types of problems.

TJ, no offense, but how long have you been around boats? How many boats have you bought/sold?

When I sold my last boat, the surveyor found (minor) things that I was not aware of. In fact it is very, very unusual for a survey to come out entirely without findings.

You should not be too pissed off on spending $1K on a survey that made you walk, how much would it have cost you in the end if you had bought the vessel?
Again, no problem with the normal minor things a survey would find.

The issue is disclosure. The problem is the sellers/brokers do know but do not disclose. it is what has the OP so upset that he calls them lying DBs! I agree with him.

As far as how many boats have i owned and how long i've been around boats? Funny how by my questioning the process you take me as newb who just fell off a hay wagon. Apparently questioning an imbedded process is a foreign concept here. So just to restate it again, I question the offer - disclosure order of business that is the boat selling industry. Bidding without disclosure is bidding in the blind. Of course all offers are contingent. And surveys will turn up nit picking problems. Most of which won't slow the process. Not what this is about.


To answer your question:

I've owned boats since i was 17 years old. Lets count the boats i've owned-

18' Winner ( or was it a 19'?)

Hobie 16 ( I've owned 3)

Hobie 14

Hobie 18

Inter 20

Inter 17

J22

Mariner 19

Beneteau First 345

Boston Whaler Dauntless 18

Sea Ray 270 Sundancer

Sea Ray 370 Sundancer

How many is that? I bought and sold every one of these boats myself with exception of one Hobie 16, which i still own. Am i qualified to speak or are there more tests?

Last edited by TJC45; 07-18-2013 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
Again, no problem with the normal minor things a survey would find.

The issue is disclosure. The problem is the sellers/brokers do know but do not disclose. it is what has the OP so upset that he calls them lying DBs! I agree with him.

As far as how many boats have i owned and how long i've been around boats? Funny how by my questioning the process you take me as newb who just fell off a hay wagon. Apparently questioning an imbedded process is a foreign concept here. So just to restate it again, I question the offer - disclosure order of business that is the boat selling industry. Bidding without disclosure is bidding in the blind. Of course all offers are contingent. And surveys will turn up nit picking problems. Most of which won't slow the process. Not what this is about.


To answer your question:

I've owned boats since i was 17 years old. Lets count the boats i've owned-

18' Winner ( or was it a 19'?)

Hobie 16 ( I've owned 3)

Hobie 14

Hobie 18

Inter 20

Inter 17

J22

Mariner 19

Beneteau First 345

Boston Whaler Dauntless 18

Sea Ray 270 Sundancer

Sea Ray 370 Sundancer

How many is that? I bought and sold every one of these boats myself with exception of one Hobie 16, which i still own. Am i qualified to speak or are there more tests?
TJ, I sincerely meant the no offense bit. No tests required.
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  #60  
Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
The seller had to know the boat was junk.
I have to say that I think you are off base in making this assumption. There are a lot of neglected boats out there, that the seller hasn't even looked at in many years. In addition, I can tell you I never inspected any of the boats that I've owned, during the time that I owned them, as carefully as I did before I bought them. What's more, you inspected the boat yourself, probably more closely than the seller has in a long time, and YOU couldn't tell that it was junk. So how can you be so sure that he knew?

Beyond that, I think I'm beginning to get the picture. You could tell that there was a serious problem with the boat. You wanted the seller to tell you just how bad it was. The broker suggested that you should make an offer and get a surveyor to answer that question for you. And you went along.

Sorry to tell you, but you made a mistake. You should not have gone ahead with the survey without getting an answer to your question first. It is most definitely NOT the "normal" process in boat-buying to make an offer when you still have questions for the seller. Perhaps the broker tried to convince you that this is the way it normally works, but it is not.

It is not, offer first, then disclosure later. It is, make a careful inspection, ask your questions, get your answers, make an offer, then get a survey and do a sea trial to reveal whatever might still be hidden. That's the "normal" process.

And yet once again, yes, some sellers and brokers are LMDs. And yet another time, once again, that is a problem with dishonest people, it is not a problem with the boat-buying process. The boat buying process is not backwards.

Edited to add: You also seem to think that surveys are only supposed to turn up "minor," "nit picking" things. Sometimes that is true. Especially if you've done a really good, thorough inspection yourself, and asked a lot of questions ahead of time. Sometimes, though, surveys turn up extremely major things that neither the seller nor the buyer knew about beforehand. This is why you get a survey, after all. If it was a certainty that any unknown issues would be minor nit-picks then it would be silly to spend the money on a survey. The whole point of a survey is to find out if there are any major problems that are hidden.

Like jorgenl, I honestly mean no offense, but you really do seem to have some confusion about how the boat buying process is supposed to work.

Last edited by denverd0n; 07-18-2013 at 03:36 PM.
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