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  #61  
Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
I have to say that I think you are off base in making this assumption. There are a lot of neglected boats out there, that the seller hasn't even looked at in many years. In addition, I can tell you I never inspected any of the boats that I've owned, during the time that I owned them, as carefully as I did before I bought them. What's more, you inspected the boat yourself, probably more closely than the seller has in a long time, and YOU couldn't tell that it was junk. So how can you be so sure that he knew?

Beyond that, I think I'm beginning to get the picture. You could tell that there was a serious problem with the boat. You wanted the seller to tell you just how bad it was. The broker suggested that you should make an offer and get a surveyor to answer that question for you. And you went along.

Sorry to tell you, but you made a mistake. You should not have gone ahead with the survey without getting an answer to your question first. It is most definitely NOT the "normal" process in boat-buying to make an offer when you still have questions for the seller. Perhaps the broker tried to convince you that this is the way it normally works, but it is not.

It is not, offer first, then disclosure later. It is, make a careful inspection, ask your questions, get your answers, make an offer, then get a survey and do a sea trial to reveal whatever might still be hidden. That's the "normal" process.

And yet once again, yes, some sellers and brokers are LMDs. And yet another time, once again, that is a problem with dishonest people, it is not a problem with the boat-buying process. The boat buying process is not backwards.
As i said i didn't "go along." Why would I? The boat had a glaring problem.

I see it as a problem with the process. It has gone the same way with every used large boat i've purchased, The Bene, and both Searays. But with those boats, to use an aircraft saying, there was nothing hanging, nothing dripping. Still i was on my own to discover whatever there was to discover about these boats and bid in the blind. With nothing obvious offers were made, surveys completed and closing those deals was a formality. The Pearson just accentuates the glaring idiocy of this process. While the process works just fine for the normal scratch and dent disclosures of most surveys it doesn't in times where the boat may be better suited for a sawz-all than a listing in Yachtworld.

And, BTW, even used Hobies need to carefully inspected. Something goes wrong on one of those and you could get hurt.

Last edited by TJC45; 07-18-2013 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
As i said i didn't "go along." Why would I? The boat had a glaring problem.
Huh!?! In your earlier posting you said that you paid for the survey. You said that it was the surveyor who told you the boat was junk. Now you're saying that you didn't?

Or did you misunderstand me? When I said that you decided to go along, it was with the brokers suggestion that you should get a survey done to tell you how bad the problem was.

Actually, never mind. Either way, the discussion is just getting silly. The process is not backwards, you can do your own inspection and get questions answered before anyone expects you to make an offer. There is no legal requirement for a full disclosure, but it's the same as buying a car in that regard. No one expects you to "bid blind" and frankly it is a bit absurd to even suggest that they do.

The truth is that it sounds to me like you goofed, paid for a survey that you shouldn't have, and now you're trying desperately to somehow rationalize it to yourself by saying that you were just doing what all boat buyers do, even though that does not appear to be the case.

But whatever.
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Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
.... Either way, the discussion is just getting silly. The process is not backwards, you can do your own inspection and get questions answered before anyone expects you to make an offer. There is no legal requirement for a full disclosure, but it's the same as buying a car in that regard. No one expects you to "bid blind" and frankly it is a bit absurd to even suggest that they do....
Agreed. The basic common law rule of the marketplace in the US (and AFAIK any country whose legal system derives from English law) is, and has always been, caveat emptor, or buyer beware. As such, the seller has no disclosure obligation whatsoever. None. It is entirely up to a buyer to make any inspections and investigations, directly or via agents, that s/he believes wise before agreeing to buy from and to pay a seller.

Now it's also true that in the past 40 years or so, this common law rule has been changed, on an ad-hoc basis, typically by statute or regulation at the federal level and in many states, to protect ordinary consumers when buying necessities or similar common items - but the coverage of these ad-hoc legal changes is variable and patchwork. For example, there are (after the fact) lemon laws for automobiles, warranty disclaimer limitation laws for manufactured household goods, and many required up-front disclosures for residential real estate. But all these consumer protection laws remain limited exceptions to the otherwise prevailing, ancient, general rule of trade.

If there is a theme to those ad-hoc legal exceptions, it has been to regulate the sale of ordinary everyday items that ordinary people use regularly as an essential part of living an ordinary, modern, urban or suburban life.

To date, boats and boating are not considered as such, but rather as luxuries, or at as least unessential, recreational things. So the common rule of trade still applies.

Whether the law for boat transactions should be different is another question (and if so, this is hardly the forum to effect legal changes). Regardless, the law today is what it is.

Some people are honest, some are incompetent, some are lazy, some are one or more or none of these, and it's up to potential buyers to size up sellers and to make best use of their time and money. If you feel (or think) that a seller is not a stand up person, often the best course is simply to go elsewhere. If the goods on offer are tempting enough to continue on anyway, then for boat purchases a survey is a prudent expense - it's the buyer's best insurance against the buyer's unknowns (whether the seller knows of them or not).

It seems to me that you (or the OP) decided to go for the insurance (wise) but now are upset about having paid the premium (surveyor's fee). That was the buyer's choice. S/he could have walked away for nothing, and didn't. Man up, and accept that's the way it is.

Hindsight is 20/20, and maybe looking back that wasn't the optimal choice. Well, that wasn't the first nor will it be the last time you (or me, the OP, or any of us) decide to spend a little time or money to avoid a possibly bigger headache. It seems that in the bigger picture, all ended well. Smile!
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  #64  
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Huh!?! In your earlier posting you said that you paid for the survey. You said that it was the surveyor who told you the boat was junk. Now you're saying that you didn't?

Or did you misunderstand me? When I said that you decided to go along, it was with the brokers suggestion that you should get a survey done to tell you how bad the problem was.

Actually, never mind. Either way, the discussion is just getting silly. The process is not backwards, you can do your own inspection and get questions answered before anyone expects you to make an offer. There is no legal requirement for a full disclosure, but it's the same as buying a car in that regard. No one expects you to "bid blind" and frankly it is a bit absurd to even suggest that they do.

The truth is that it sounds to me like you goofed, paid for a survey that you shouldn't have, and now you're trying desperately to somehow rationalize it to yourself by saying that you were just doing what all boat buyers do, even though that does not appear to be the case.

But whatever.
What can I say, reading comprehension counts. I posted, i believe more than once, that i walked before making an offer. The boat had an obvious structural issue with the distorted roof that also led to interior bulkheads pulling away from their tabbing, and doors not closing right. I could see that without a survey. Thus my own conclusion that the boat was sawz-all candidate. The damage i could see was going to run to five figures to fix.

my issue is only with the backwards process that had a broker refusing to talk about these issues and suggesting that i make an offer and pay for a survey.

Agree - we've beaten it to death. And truth is, I've tried to be polite here through your condesending comments. But enough is enough.

Last edited by TJC45; 07-18-2013 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 07-18-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

you may be limiting yourself , other good boats....some custom c&cs,custom built s&s designs do the job .....seakindly fast safe & dont need a lot of rebuild..built right in beginng...done some offshore & have been very happy with them.seattle &vancouver island occasionaly have these boats come to market....trying to get straight answers from broker questionable...they just want to sell get commission &you go away..if still looking let me know & i will keep eyes open.
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  #66  
Old 07-19-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
Smack, i agree that noone knows everything and that even the most competent surveyor could miss some things or under estimate the cost to repair. Not at issue. Not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the order of business. In the boat buying world it is offer - disclosure. It should be disclosure - offer. How can you bid on something without knowing it's true condition?.
In my case of buying my Hunter it was disclosure - offer. I went down and spent a couple of hours on her, checking out everything I possibly could. I found a lot of things that I had questions about. I sent the broker and owner that list, plus a list of many more that would pinpoint potential problems. Their answers to all those questions (about 20 of them) was disclosure prior to offer.

I then made the offer and entered into a contract that was contingent of survey, that stated that the offer was up for renegotiation if deficiencies were found in the survey. They were - and those let me push the purchase price lower than my already low-ball offer. I pushed until the broker got very nervous.

Now, yes, had the owner balked and walked - I would have eaten the costs at that point. But he didn't and we closed the deal and are still in touch. He'll be sailing with me soon. I got a great deal - he got out from under the boat. And I was very satisfied with the disclosure prior to my offer.

I think the system works pretty well.
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Old 07-19-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
And there were other problems no one, not even the surveyor could catch (based on how typical "non-invasive" surveys are done). So it's all going to cost me a fair amount more than I'd planned for. C'est un bateau!

What did the survey miss?
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
In my case of buying my Hunter it was disclosure - offer. I went down and spent a couple of hours on her, checking out everything I possibly could. I found a lot of things that I had questions about. I sent the broker and owner that list, plus a list of many more that would pinpoint potential problems. Their answers to all those questions (about 20 of them) was disclosure prior to offer.

I then made the offer and entered into a contract that was contingent of survey, that stated that the offer was up for renegotiation if deficiencies were found in the survey. They were - and those let me push the purchase price lower than my already low-ball offer. I pushed until the broker got very nervous.

Now, yes, had the owner balked and walked - I would have eaten the costs at that point. But he didn't and we closed the deal and are still in touch. He'll be sailing with me soon. I got a great deal - he got out from under the boat. And I was very satisfied with the disclosure prior to my offer.

I think the system works pretty well.
You and I would get along! This is exactly the way I do it. Check it out, ask questions, make a go - no go decision based on those answers.

That said, i was and am amazed at the number of brokers who answer my questions with 'Make an offer and get a survey." That's the part I have the issue with. Without the answers to those intial questions i'm not sure i want to make an offer. Disclosure - offer

BTW, i went on the blog and chked out the pixs of your boat. You did well!!! That puppy is gorgeous!!!!

Nicely done!

Last edited by TJC45; 07-19-2013 at 09:33 AM.
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  #69  
Old 07-19-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

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Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
What did the survey miss?
One big one was a leak in the water tank. There was no indication of leakage during the survey. However, when I filled it to capacity, it started leaking like a sieve. So I've got to figure that one out. I pulled the cover in the v-berth and started looking around yesterday. We'll see.

In my case, and I think it's pretty typical in surveys, it was "non-invasive". In other words he didn't dig into nooks and crannies.

Here's the wording from the contract:

Quote:
Inspections are conducted without any mechanical removals of any kind by the surveyor. Mechanical removals include anything that require tools, destruction and/or heavy lifting to make ready, for example tacked carpeting, fastened access covers, anchor chain or large tool boxes. Any inaccessible areas needing entry are to be made ready by the owner or the owner’s representative.
I was there during the survey and shadowed him - which he liked. He did a very good job. It was definitely worth the money.
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Old 07-20-2013
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Re: Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

"One big one was a leak in the water tank."

50 cents worth of bondo will probably fix it just fine...
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