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Are ALL Sellers LYING MORONIC DOUCHBAGS??

14K views 75 replies 32 participants last post by  smackdaddy 
#1 ·
I've been looking for a year now for a cruising yacht 40-45 feet. My budget is $170. That money I thought would find me with a boat that needs some items fixed or one big item and a few small ones.

Am I not being realistic? Am I naive in thinking that money would get me an ocean worthy boat not at all bristol condition but mostly good to go with a few months of work?
So far I've walked a **** ton of boats and they are all just a wreck. Buyers are not representing themselves. I understand where a buyer wants to get you on the boat but I just get pissed off by them wasting my time. I find the items listed as new are either missing or many years old. And, does "teak in great condition" mean I'm supposed to ignore the miles of hardened peeled up caulking in-between all that teak????

My favorite new euphemism is "deferred maintenance". It is so glaringly obvious when someone has not done squat to their boat for at least the last five years. Not even hose it off. Sure your engine has less than 1,000 hours but you have not changed your oil in 4 years and the head pump-out pump has failed and those tanks are full and sitting there for years!!! I just ran across this today. Oh, and your transmission is completely devoid of any liquid product resembling lubricant!

I am in Seattle now this being my second trip here in one month flying up from Los Angeles area. What a waste of time and money.

Just looked at a 44' boat that was represented as "recent extensive refit". I paid for the haul and pressure wash ($475) and inspection ($800) plus engine survey ($275). ******* keel to hull join has delaminations, crack in rudder fin, and here's the best one of all THE HULL IS DISTORTED BECAUSE THE MAST HAS SHOVED THE BILGES DOWN AWAY FROM THE BULKHEAD. The radar and chart plotter are so old they are not worth dealing with. It has the wrong prop (18 instead of 16) and it can't make full rpm's and on and on.

And I'm not looking at silly boats (HunterBenLinas). My short list is Passport 40, Nordic 44, Passport 42/Slocum 43 and the likes and about any Perry boat worthy of crossing oceans.

LOOK. IF YOU ARE A SELLER DON'T FREEKING LYE TO MY FACE -I'M GONNA FIND THIS STUFF OUT ANYWAY. STOP BEING A DOUCHBAG.

Is it supposed to be this difficult? What am I doing wrong? Really dismayed with the whole process so far.
 
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#3 ·
I agree with Alive. Find someone whose time is worth less than yours and pay them to do the initial legwork for you. If that's a broker, then that's fine. It could also be a surveyor. The guy who surveyed my boat offered a "sanity check" survey option. For $100-$200 (depending on the size of the boat) he would spend an hour or so aboard, taking pictures and looking for the glaringly obvious stuff (like your mast/bilge issue). If you were happy with the results, he would credit half of the cost toward the full survey of the boat. You'll spend more than $100-200 just on the plane ticket.

Granted, it may not have helped you much in this case (can't really see a keel/hull delamination from in the water), but still worth considering.
 
#20 ·
Well -of course. I've a (recommended by our favorite naval architect) buyers broker representing me on the purchase side. And I know my broker has a very good reputation amongst buyers as honest with high integrity. I am a federally licensed aircraft technician and my job at times includes inspecting and returning aircraft to service. I would have thought I could catch some of the issues my surveyor found but they all required quite a bit of sleuthing, knowing where to look, prior knowledge of similar boats (and haulout) to find.

Some of the boats I've looked at and dismissed outright -Hylas 42, Hylas 44, -Lafitte 44, Kelly Peterson 44 (and KP46), Baba 40, Panda 40, Mason 43, Valiant 40, Caliber 40, Tayana 42 and a few others.
 
#5 ·
The problem(for buyers) is that the good boats go fast. It is a matter of timing that is hurting you. Set a tickler in YW to email you when one of your preferred boats first gets listed and be the first to go see it. You also want to check with the broker to make sure it is in fact new to YW instead of being re-listed by a new broker.

This is how we got our Ericson 35 for well below market value and sold it for well above market value.

Another good way to find a boat is to frequent the users forums of the boats you like.

This is how we found our current boat. I had actually started corresponding with the owner well before he decided to sell. We ended up buying the boat from them while they were actively cruising and on their way to SC to put it on the market.

Not all sellers are DBs. I have been a seller of many boats and always represented my boats accurately with honest descriptions including a list of items that need to be addresses and lots of high resolution detailed photos. Guess that is why I never used a broker to sell my boats.

The problem is when a new boat comes into the picture before the old boat gets sold, the old boat gets neglected. The other problem is that there are a lot of ignorant owners out there that think a boat will stay pristine while on the hard or not actively being used. A piece of equipment may be regarded as "new" because it was installed just before the boat went up for sale 3 years ago. Sure, it is in "new condition" but it is not current, especially for electronics.

Good luck and take a breather. We had actually stopped looking for a new boat when our Ericson appeared on YW.
 
#6 · (Edited)
all brokers are not honest--i have found it is a rare one who is.
i surveyed last year a vagabond 47 in puerto vallarta for someone who was looking for one to cruise.
the BROKER had told me this boat is cruise ready, it has excellent..yada yada yada quack quack..... when i SAW the boat i saw a 150,000 asking price worthy of 40,000 purchase price---rotted teak, sanded away teak, frozen engine, genset frozen, no electronics, dry rot under the hatches which of course are not leaking, but totally watertight--NOT...
capper was the teak helm seat i lifted, and it cracked into two parts in my hand....wow...well maintained.....
puleeze do not tell me how bludi honest are brokers.....rodlmao.
i have to laugh on DECK as i havent a FLOOR


this is only one of many....

but i know a beautiful and cruise ready ct 54 in san diego at yachtfinder/windseekers for sale by broker now--the owner and his wife were cruising mexico, last thanksgiving he blew an aneurysm and died.... but the boat is gorgeous....i know her--she is a perry design and ab-fab....my friend doesnt want to sell, but she cannot handle boat by self, so is for sale. if i had the dough--i saw her electronix--she is packed with goodies and a ssb, everything. he cruised it for 26 yrs. if you are interested, ask for ron at yachtfinders and tell him his crazed lady friend from shelter island is in barra de navidad and sent you to him. he seems least dishonest of any broker i have met, including the one i chose to try to sell my ericson the day before the market tanked (different brokerage).

there are good boats out there, but do not trust a surveyor nor a broker n0r the owner for truth in advertising. there WILL be proms not found nor discussed in every boat , even brand new off the ass-embly line production ones...


oh yes, and as i am still a seller, yes, ALL sellers are liars... except me...rodlmao


ye speelt maroon wrongly
 
#7 ·
Hope you have at typo going on, because if you think you are going to get a decent boat for $170...........LOL......or is that $170K? for that kind of money, you could get a brand new 30-34' boat!! depending upon what you are trying to do and go etc.

Marty
 
#8 ·
The honest answer is that one mans Princess is another mans pig...

I have owners who think their boat is in top condition and nearly perfect and you'd have to pay me to take the boat off their hands. I also have owners who's boats are a perfect 10 and they are still never satisfied that it is good enough...
 
#9 ·
I heard a saying a long time ago, "Follow the money", and every time I do I get a good understanding of how the money is doing the motivating.

If you are a buyer, there are countless people looking to get a piece of the money you intend to spend. The broker wants to maximize his or her commission. The seller wants to make a killing selling his or her boat. It's predator vs. prey. In the wild, the prey that thrives is the one always on the lookout for predators.

We've begun our search locally. No real financial hit driving a couple of hours to look at a boat. Our first look-see was a total dud. Even the one the broker and dock walkers talked up was a disappointment. We had dinner and drinks afterwards by the water and all was good again.

We have another look-see on Thursday that will be a 4 hour round trip. We'll take in other things the area has to offer while there so it won't be a total waste of out time if the boat isn't right.

We're planning a trip out east. It will be a vacation, the chance to see friends and take in what the area has to offer. Along the way we plan to check out as many different types of boats as we can. Call it mind games, cuz the real reason we're heading out east is to see boats, but we're making it into a vacation. And we will enjoy the vacation, regardless of what the boats look like.

We have a seller's broker. He seems genuine. But he's on strict commission. Expecting anything other than him wanting a quick and top price sale would be kidding ourselves. In the end, if you aren't constantly looking out for yourself, you will get eaten.
 
#18 ·
We're planning a trip out east. It will be a vacation, the chance to see friends and take in what the area has to offer. Along the way we plan to check out as many different types of boats as we can. Call it mind games, cuz the real reason we're heading out east is to see boats, but we're making it into a vacation. And we will enjoy the vacation, regardless of what the boats look like.
.
This is what we did on our Florida trip. The boats we went to see were in bad shape for the money asked. We put a offer on one then took the kids snorkeling/ site seeing. Had a great time, but owner couldn't understand our offer. Even after his broker told him the condition of the boat. They ended up pulling it off the market so a friend could check it out. We moved on and our new boat should be to the yard (where I'm waiting) in a hour or so. By making a vacation out of helps to not go crazy spending money on trips to see boats.
 
#10 ·
Rob your angry (rightfully so) for the cost of a survey you didn't need. Knowledge of the boat your going to see is a big help. I stayed a couple of days in the area (deal md) when I was checking out my boat. We spent hours on it. Then when I felt it was the boat I wanted I had the survey done.
 
#11 ·
Rob,

I agree with Tim R. about "timing".
I disagree about going through brokers.

You have clearly explained what you're looking for, and your expectations seem realistic. You have clearly demonstrated that you understand sailing vessels, what the critical items are, where and what you should be looking at.
A broker is an unnecessary expense when you have the level of knowledge that you appear to have.

The only advice I can offer you, is keep doing what you're doing. Put feelers out everywhere, look at every available resource for boat sales. Have patience, the right girl will come along.

I sympathize with your frustration.
 
#29 ·
There are lots of FSBO boats like yours at the sub 10K-20K point. At his level most are listed with brokers

I don't get why he doesn't just go look at boats that are listed for sale whether privately or with a broker? If he finds one he likes, make an offer that he is happy with and if they accept, what does he care if the seller pays a fee?

Sellers, brokers and buyers come in all flavors. It's just the way it is.
 
#12 ·
Looks like there is plenty of room in the used boat market for a PROFESSIONAL STAGER - Sellers are disillusioned about what they have, value it represents, competition, and the real costs of getting a boat in the right condition to show to a large and aggresive buyer pool. Unfortunately many boaters are too frugal (cheap?) to have someone stage or regularly detail their boats, believing that a seasonal washdown will suffice.

The truths in marketing (from my real estate bag of 'tricks', quoting Dirk Zeller)-

Sales are governed by the law of supply and demand. This rule is absolute and without exception. The appreciation of a market, the expectations of buyers and sellers, and the velocity of market sales are all dictated by the supply of -- and the demand for -- real estate for sale.

Sales are governed by the law of cause and effect. Put differently, positive situations cause positive outcomes, and vice versa. For example, a vibrant economic growth leads to a vibrant real estate market and strong appreciation of homes, while loss of jobs and a languishing economy produce exactly the opposite effect.

History will repeat itself. In any marketplace, there are cycles. Periods of rapid appreciation are followed by stagnant periods where values stabilize or even decrease. By acquiring marketplace knowledge, you can foresee trends.

This definitely applies to boats, and the huge downside with boats is depreciation caused by neglect, environment and substandard work by ill informed owners and untrained yard staff. Deep down we all must know this, and at some point deal with it.
 
#13 ·
Hey,

A few more or less random thoughts:

-I keep hearing that it's a buyer's market, that if you don't like the boat you're currently looking at, then just walk away because another boat is right around the corner, that boat's are going for penny's on the dollar, etc.
-But when you hear from someone who is actually looking to buy a boat, they can't seem to find a decent one.

-When I was looking to purchase an inexpensive, production type 35ish racer / cruiser (could it really be 6 years ago?) I saw a bunch of duds from bunch of dud brokers. Then I got a little smarter. I started asking the hard questions like what does the engine compartment look like, and to please send me pictures, etc. I was honest with the broker that I was REALLY going to buy a boat, but not a POS. I asked him to not waste my time and his time by showing me a POS but talking it up like it was great. Some brokers were good at using code words, like 'just needs a good cleaning', or 'sails need updating' (if the sails need updating you can be sure that lots of other things need work too.

-Most brokers did give me the information I needed and that saved me hours of driving.

-The boat I did purchase was far from perfect, but was good enough from condition, price, performance ,etc, to make me happy.

Good luck,
Barry
 
#14 ·
Rug-

You'd think that there would be a real market for "stagers", but I think that a lot of these people would never shell out the money for the service.

If these people don't love their vessels enough to maintain them, and let them decay to a decrepit condition, what makes you think that they would suddenly pay someone to clean them up to a saleable condition?

People who maintain their boats well, will simply clean and primp their own boats before putting them up for sale, because they are used to keeping them in a presentable fashion in the first place.

I mean, it makes sense on the surface, but I think it would be a non-starter.
 
#15 ·
Most boats are beyond staging and I would find it rather insulting to find some nice throw pillows and a fresh cleaning on a boat with a seized engine or delaminated hull or 20 year old rigging(unless it was previously fully disclosed and priced accordingly). This is otherwise known as lipstick on a pig.

Staging is a way to de-personalize something to make it more acceptable to a new possible owner. On a boat this means removing all the unnecessary clutter, items that do not go with the sale, do a good cleaning and give the boat a feel that a new owner could imagine himself/herself fitting in.

Staging will not hide deferred maintenance or missing/broken items to a savvy buyer.
 
#16 ·
I totally get that Tim & Bubble - what is lacking all too often is the pride of ownership reflected in cosmetic, structural, mechanical & an 'all systems are go' frame of mind. How many boat owners do you know that have, and are committed to use, a daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, semi-annual . . . schedule and dedicated service log for their boat? While staging on the surface is cosmetic, it should really be about total preparation for sale (and safe use). If the seller can't see the truth about their boat, perhaps a pre-survey and mechanical evaluation will uncover all the problems that will prevent a sale, and give a serious seller the opportunity to correct them. Provided they are willing to pay, and realize they can't add that expense on to the price.
 
#17 ·
Usually, the first thing the owner of a new boat does is bring her up to their standards. For a while, pride of ownership keeps the owner motivated to maintain her in the best condition they can afford.

Usually, when an owner decides to sell, the boat is no longer in that same condition they brought it to because they have tired of her.

There are some owners who have been hit by the unexpected, loss of job, loss of loved one, etc. There's also relocation. These owners have to sell. So these boats have the best chance of being in good condition.

If the owner isn't moving up to a bigger boat, and they don't fall into the above category, chances are the boat's condition isn't up to par with how the owner kept it when they first owned it.
 
#19 ·
#21 ·
Wow -Thanks to everybody for your great insights!! I think many people have been in my shoes. JulieMor you have some wise words and you seem to know finance! I've taken everyones input and now am comforted by the fact that I'm not off my rocker. Yes, I'm a serious buyer. I realize that my purchase price of apx. $170 will likely need another $50k all said and done before I'm ready to cross oceans.

I guess it may just take a LOT LONGER than I was expecting. More than the year I've put in. I think another poster is correct in that you have to be in the right place at the right time and be ready with cash in the correct market. Ive got the cash. In this market it seems boats would likely be neglected due to distressed owners making up the bulk of sellers. The corollary would be a great market with well maintained boats at commensurately higher prices.

I've tried but found it almost impossible to deal with a seller directly. Brokers are very protective of any identifying info. I've found a few boats (I've walked the docks in several cities) and when I find a boat I have left a message in a plastic bag tied to their lifeline. No luck there so far. Asking other boaters on the dock around the marina about the owner usually gets nowhere. Most folks with boats nearby usually say "I never see them here". The dockmaster will not reveal any info for legal reasons.

I've asked several brokers to go through their past clients and find someone with the boats on my target list and ask if they might sell. That has not come up with any boats.

Know of anyone out there with a Nordic 44? Norseman 447? Passport 40? If they have cruising gear on board I'll make them a sweet offer :)
 
#24 · (Edited)
Wow -Thanks to everybody for your great insights!! I think many people have been in my shoes. JulieMor you have some wise words and you seem to know finance! I've taken everyones input and now am comforted by the fact that I'm not off my rocker. Yes, I'm a serious buyer. I realize that my purchase price of apx. $170 will likely need another $50k all said and done before I'm ready to cross oceans.

I guess it may just take a LOT LONGER than I was expecting. More than the year I've put in. I think another poster is correct in that you have to be in the right place at the right time and be ready with cash in the correct market. Ive got the cash. In this market it seems boats would likely be neglected due to distressed owners making up the bulk of sellers. The corollary would be a great market with well maintained boats at commensurately higher prices.

I've tried but found it almost impossible to deal with a seller directly. Brokers are very protective of any identifying info. I've found a few boats (I've walked the docks in several cities) and when I find a boat I have left a message in a plastic bag tied to their lifeline. No luck there so far. Asking other boaters on the dock around the marina about the owner usually gets nowhere. Most folks with boats nearby usually say "I never see them here". The dockmaster will not reveal any info for legal reasons.

I've asked several brokers to go through their past clients and find someone with the boats on my target list and ask if they might sell. That has not come up with any boats.

Know of anyone out there with a Nordic 44? Norseman 447? Passport 40? If they have cruising gear on board I'll make them a sweet offer :)
I guess I'm still not clear on your pricing. Are you saying you have a purchase budget of $170K - and are expecting to put in another $50K to get her ready?

At least according to the photos - this looks like a damn nice Passport - for way less than $170K:

1984 Passport 42 New Decks 42 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

And it doesn't appear that you'd need another $50K to shove off.

[Disclaimer - I have no idea if the people involved with this boat are LMDs.]
 
#22 ·
Well you found out the hard way ; -

There are liars.

There are dammed liars

Then there are people selling boats.

Ok this is not universally true and I looked at boats that had been honestly described and talked to brokers where after a little probing the broker came up with things like;-

"The owner has not been aboard for 18 months"

"The owner can't drop the price, that is what he owes the bank."

"No I have not actually seen the boat."

It is definitely worth having a checklist of questions and to ask for some specific pics of anything you might have concerns about.

But that won't protect you from someone who just lies to get you there. I travelled a couple of hundred miles to look at boat that was described as 'ready for the water' and 'on a roadworthy trailer' There were holes in the deck and topsides, the trailer had no tow hitch and all tires were flat. I did not even get out of the car. The pictures he sent must have either been from an earlier age or of another boat.

However there are many good brokers around here are two that dealt very fairly with me and saved me from making pointless trips.

Dave McCall Maritime Yacht Sales USVI. He flew to another island and took many extra pictures for me.

Advantage Yacht Sales of Indiantown. They answered questions very honestly and in some cases hinted that the boat had just been put on the market and that while the price was clearly unrealistic the seller needed to 'marinate' for a year or so when the price would tumble.
 
#23 ·
---
LOOK. IF YOU ARE A SELLER DON'T FREEKING LYE TO MY FACE -I'M GONNA FIND THIS STUFF OUT ANYWAY. STOP BEING A DOUCHBAG. ---
CheckedOutRob -
If you want to vent spelling is important.
"freeking" should be "freaking"
"lye"should be "lie"
"douchbag" should be "douchebag"
There. I feel better now. Lol.

Zee - I don't get your reference to misspelling "maroon"?
Unless you're referring to "moronic"?
 
#26 ·
And from the seller's point of view:

Don't come back with a counter offer 25% lower than asking because it needs x, y and z. I know this, that's why I set the price where it was when put up for sale. Start with the price of a new boat and deduct the value if you think fixing x, y and z should be on my tab or you want them corrected as a condition of sale to make a 25 year old boat like new.

But yes - these flaws should all be mentioned if known. Inventory and age of sales, structural integrity, maintenance history, rotted cores, etc.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Some owners/sellers are just unrealistic when they set the price. Some brokers will go along.

My first offer was about 45% of the original asking price and the deal done at around 50% on my current boat. Yes they sunk a ton of money into the boat but that was the market price. It needed nothing doing to it at all, truly turnkey. I did change the perfectly good manual windlass for an electric one as I regard this as a safety device.
 
#34 ·
One problem i've experienced in the boat selling world that would seem backwards is the make an offer before knowing if the boat is a viable candidate.

A visual inspection can yield some obvious problems not factored into the asking price. The broker advises to make an offer and let a surveyor figure it out. Here is the issue: You already know the boat has some issues. These issues could be deal killers if you don't like the outcome of the survey. Yet, here is a seller/broker asking you to make an offer in the blind and then put out for a survey all for a boat you may not want. This seems ass backwards to me.
 
#35 ·
One problem i've experienced in the boat selling world that would seem backwards is the make an offer before knowing if the boat is a viable candidate.

A visual inspection can yield some obvious problems not factored into the asking price. The broker advises to make an offer and let a surveyor figure it out. Here is the issue: You already know the boat has some issues. These issues could be deal killers if you don't like the outcome of the survey. Yet, here is a seller/broker asking you to make an offer in the blind and then put out for a survey all for a boat you may not want. This seems ass backwards to me.
You don't have a home inspection till after you have agreed on a price. Pretty much the same thing?
 
#36 ·
TJC, in my case I did it "backward." I had a certain amount of "cash" and wasn't willing to finance. Most of the boats I was interested in were listed at 50-100% more than my budget. I was honest and up-front, told the seller what my limit was, but also reminded them that I had cash and there weren't any financing deals to fall through, conditions based on the sale of a current boat, etc. I always made the offer contingent on my review and a survey, and made it clear that I assumed there wouldn't be any unexpected surprises. Not everyone appreciated my approach (I was called names several times), but some appreciated the candor, and I actually visited several boats before settling on the one I bought.

Of course, that doesn't help the OP, but that's a separate issue... ;)
 
#38 ·
Jimgo, excellent advice!!! The way to buy a boat. or, anything else for that matter! Be upfront about the money. Establish that you aren't a lowballer just out to squeeze the seller. And, remind the seller of any benefits you bring to the table. For instance- cash in hand!!!!
 
#43 ·
Mike-
"Maroon" comes from an old Daffy Duck line in a Looney Tune. Whether Zee remembers watching it or not, Daffy said it first. Works for me, the maroons never figure it out.

Rob-
Year after year, the Nooze do surveys on private used car ads, like in the classifieds. And year after year, they keep finding the same Astounding Nooze, that 90% of the ads are frauds and lies, often from unlicensed "brokers" not private sellers at all. SO, why should the boat market be any better?

If you see somethign interesting, send 'em an email and make sure the footer says "Warning: Making false claims or intentionally failing to disclose known defects may be prosecuted as criminal fraud resulting in monetary fines, loss of business license, and time in prison."

You'll probably never hear from 90% of them again, and that's a good thing. Other than that there's not much you can do, except carry a wrench and open the seacocks on the boats that are mis-represented. You'll be doing everyone a favor.

Just one man's opinion. (Wanna borrow a wrench?)
 
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