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  #151  
Old 07-28-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

I am always amazed by people that make an assumption and state is as fact...whether it be their fact is irrelevant.

So, all brokers are lazy, thieves, uneducated, whatevers? All sailors are cheap and go slow because they are afraid of going fast? All powerboaters are assholes? All lawyers are crooks? All salespeople fool around? Doctors, plumbers, electricians, (fill in the blank) are out to screw you? Great way to go through life!

There are good and bad in every profession.....including those who make these statements. Of course, they have a tendency to not bring that up. The key is to weed through the vendor, no matter what they are, and get to the good ones. If you didn't like doctors but needed a heart transplant to live, who is doing the surgery?

Oh, and yes, I have met some very good and honest used car salespeople.
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  #152  
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailpower View Post
Of course not. It’s the internet. Your opinion doesn’t even have to be relevant to my comments which, based on your quoted text, it is not.

For example, I haven’t scolded Julie for trying to save money.

In the interest of full disclosure shouldn’t you also post your own bona fides relating to your own expertise on this topic? It seems like that information would be important to anyone who was reading your spirited defense.
My bona fides are as a forum member with over 4000 posts on Sailnet who has participated in a lot of boat buying, contracts, type threads, and has seen brokers pop in from time to time to "explain the rules", rules that invariably benefit the broker.

You said you weren't scolding Julie about trying to save money, but it sure seems like you were trying to justify a broker's role, and their commission, and you were clearly describing a process that a person would have to engage a broker to complete.

Quote:
During this process people that you deal with are going to make money as the result of your purchase. If you believe that is bad then do something else with your money. Again, your choice.
If you feel I am too sensitive on the subject, I encourage you to go back and read through the boat buying threads on this forum. There are countless examples of brokers trying to convince buyers to purchase new instead of used, insist on surveys for very inexpensive boats that don't need them, engage in unnecessary legalese when a handshake would suffice, over-commit to deals before it is time, buy a boat when they aren't ready to commit, buy boats for their resale value instead of their pointing ability, buy beam instead of draft, over-insuring when it isn't necessary, and a lot of other stuff that involves spending money that doesn't come out of the broker's pocket, or buying a boat that doesn't fit the buyer.
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  #153  
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Actually, Wind, I am not trying to get Julie to do anything. I have been answering her questions regarding the process when she does use a broker.

I have no skin in the game. I haven't sold sailboats in many years and would not be the go to person for a sailboat purchase. I participate in these forums to be helpful not to make money. I would not represent anyone here if asked. I would and do answer questions about the process both here and offline. I often look up sold boat data when asked and always explain that the recorded prices may or may not be accurate. I know some particularly skilled survey and finance people and share those names when requested. I also know some knowledgeable and reputable brokers on the east coast and provide that when asked. I am always anonymous so there is no referral fee or anything like that.

I appreciate that you have over 4,000 posts expressing your opinion but wouldn’t that simply make you an expert on expressing it?

I have been involved in 100’s of transaction in over twenty years in the marine industry so have a broad base of knowledge and experience to draw on. This I offer gratis when appropriate. How about you?

You seem to have taken exception to my comments so why not address your disagreement specifically and stop wondering what my motives might be?

Better yet, why not also share your own personal experiences about the many times that you have been wronged? That would be useful, real world information for many.

Last edited by sailpower; 07-28-2013 at 01:49 PM.
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  #154  
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailpower View Post
Actually, Wind, I am not trying to get Julie to do anything. I have been answering her questions regarding the process when she does use a broker.

I have no skin in the game. I haven't sold sailboats in many years and would not be the go to person for a sailboat purchase. I participate in these forums to be helpful not to make money. I would not represent anyone here if asked. I would and do answer questions about the process both here and offline. I often look up sold boat data when asked and always explain that the recorded prices may or may not be accurate. I know some particularly skilled survey and finance people and share those names when requested. I also know some knowledgeable and reputable brokers on the east coast and provide that when asked. I am always anonymous so there is no referral fee or anything like that.
I wasn't accusing you of talking your book. I said that because of your experience as a broker you are going to see the world from a broker's perspective, which isn't appropriate for a good percentage of the boat purchases that people discuss here.

Quote:
I appreciate that you have over 4,000 posts expressing your opinion but wouldn’t that simply make you an expert on expressing it?
Clearly.

And yet it also seems to have given me the ability to know when a broker is giving advice to someone in a boat buying thread ...

Quote:
I have been involved in 100’s of transaction in over twenty years in the marine industry so have a broad base of knowledge and experience to draw on. This I offer gratis when appropriate. How about you?
Doesn't that prove my point ?

Quote:
You seem to have taken exception to my comments so why not address your disagreement specifically and stop wondering what my motives might be?
Not at all, I agree with most (maybe all ?) of what you wrote, if someone is buying an expensive boat and needs a broker. I think that is increasingly unnecessary for the same reasons that real estate brokers are becoming less important. Yes, 100 years ago when you had to send a letter to someone so they could find the property you were looking for brokers were indispensable, but now that MLS is online for real estate, and many boat advertisements are online, what is a broker actually doing for you ? It used to be that you couldn't complete a real estate transaction without a broker because the broker was the only one who even knew what real estate was for sale, but now if you listen to real estate brokers talk they sound more like therapists who are there to lead everyone through the oh so complex process of doing a title search and handing someone a check for title insurance and to close the deal, and then bringing everyone together for a group hug at the end. Does everyone really need a group hug for 3-6% ?

Quote:
Better yet, why not also share your own personal experiences about the many times that you have been wronged? That would be useful, real world information for many.
I haven't had a bad experience, I bought my last boat with a handshake.
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  #155  
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Wind, if a broker on this site had over 4000 posts would that make him/her the expert? Number of posts is irrelevnat to most of us. Over the years there have been many people on this site that have made 4000 look small. Some of them were great resourses and are missed. Some of them just had too much time and liked to argue...they are not missed!

So, does anyone know where SD is? He had a ton of posts and most of them were very relevant even when you got under his skin. His advise I miss.
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  #156  
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

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Originally Posted by tomandchris View Post
Wind, if a broker on this site had over 4000 posts would that make him/her the expert? Number of posts is irrelevnat to most of us. Over the years there have been many people on this site that have made 4000 look small. Some of them were great resourses and are missed. Some of them just had too much time and liked to argue...they are not missed!

So, does anyone know where SD is? He had a ton of posts and most of them were very relevant even when you got under his skin. His advise I miss.
Again, the point is well taken.

But I am not claiming to be an expert on buying/selling boats by saying that I have 4000+ posts, what I am claiming is to know how these threads evolve.
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  #157  
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Wind, to recap, Julie has been asking here and on other sites about the boat buying process. She is already working with a broker. That was her choice before she started posting. Whether that is appropriate to you based on what you think might be her price point I can’t answer. You will have to offer up your unsolicited opinion to a question that she hasn’t even asked directly to her on that.

What I have been doing is attempting to answer her and others specific process questions not persuade her that she should be going about this another way. I will leave that to you or those whose goal it is to increase their post count. So, yes, I am giving advice on a boat buying thread. Unlike your responses however, mine are directed towards the actual questions asked.

As I said before, there is lots of opinion masquerading as knowledge on these sites. You yourself have apparently not used a broker but have felt it necessary to post thousands of times on the topic. Good for you but not the way I do business. I’ll stick with what I know not what I assume.

Whether someone should or should not use a broker I will leave to those directly involved. My opinion on that would be as meaningless as most so no need to take up bandwidth with what, in fact, was not even the topic of this thread.

OTOH, if someone asks particular questions about the process of buying and/or selling boats using a broker, I am happy to respond with real world knowledge and experience. They can then utilize it or not as they will.

Unfortunately for me, that means my post count will never approach yours. "Experts" come in all flavors.
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Last edited by sailpower; 07-28-2013 at 06:41 PM.
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

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Originally Posted by wind_magic View Post
complex process of doing a title search and handing someone a check for title insurance and to close the deal, and then
Any tips on how to do a title search on a boat?

I have heard of a couple people getting burned by old bills due.
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

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Deposits become cleared funds generally after ratification but prior to satisfaction of contingencies. Those cleared funds are held in the brokers escrow account (By law) until disbursed as per the ratified contract. Yes, there are exceptions to every rule but brokers are required to have and use escrow accounts in every state that I am aware of.
I'm pretty sure the broker I know just hangs on to the 10% deposit check until the closing when it becomes his.
Cuts down on paperwork.
Is this illegal, I not sure I see anything wrong with it.

He deals with mostly 50,000 and below boats so maybe that is the reason.

Do you have any examples of any buyer who lost their deposit. IE did not get the boat and did not get their 10% deposit back.
I thought it was pretty much standard practice that no matter the reason if the closing didn't happen the deposit was returned.
What has been your experience?
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailpower View Post
Wind, to recap, Julie has been asking here and on other sites about the boat buying process. She is already working with a broker. That was her choice before she started posting. Whether that is appropriate to you based on what you think might be her price point I can’t answer. You will have to offer up your unsolicited opinion to a question that she hasn’t even asked directly to her on that.

What I have been doing is attempting to answer her and others specific process questions not persuade her that she should be going about this another way. I will leave that to you or those whose goal it is to increase their post count. So, yes, I am giving advice on a boat buying thread. Unlike your responses however, mine are directed towards the actual questions asked.
Fair enough, I didn't know she was going through a broker, I missed that part.

Quote:
As I said before, there is lots of opinion masquerading as knowledge on these sites. You yourself have apparently not used a broker but have felt it necessary to post thousands of times on the topic. Good for you but not the way I do business. I’ll stick with what I know not what I assume.
I didn't say I'd never used a broker, but I'll take the shot since I'm the one who started it by not knowing she was using a broker, my ego isn't wrapped up in it.

Quote:
Whether someone should or should not use a broker I will leave to those directly involved. My opinion on that would be as meaningless as most so no need to take up bandwidth with what, in fact, was not even the topic of this thread.

OTOH, if someone asks particular questions about the process of buying and/or selling boats using a broker, I am happy to respond with real world knowledge and experience. They can then utilize it or not as they will.
Like I said, I didn't read close enough and didn't know she was using a broker.

Quote:
Unfortunately for me, that means my post count will never approach yours. "Experts" come in all flavors.
Again, I'll take the shot since I started it by not knowing she was using a broker. I'm responsible for the thread going off topic, so I'm responsible for fixing it.
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