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  #161  
Old 07-28-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

I wonder what a newbie might think if they stumble onto this thread? Will they run away in terror or face the devil
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  #162  
Old 07-28-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

While I scanned these 160 posts above I noticed that none apply to the value of my boat. I think my boat is without value in respect that it is so far removed from the market. Though it is forty years old, I've owned it for the last thirty years. It's in good shape,- every day I do something for my boat and every day, with rare exception, I'm on my boat. All the posts above only relate to boats that are on the market. I've saved mre than the value of my boat in slip fees by terms of anchoring out. I've saved another full value of my boat over the years of paying liability only insurance instead of full hull coverage for a Florida registered boat. I've saved third full value of my boat by not paying any property taxes on a house for over forty years,- and likely a fourth value of my boat by not owning a car and associated expenses for the last twelve years. My forty year old boat is truely priceless. Over the decades it paid me back many times my cost in having it, and if I lost it tomorrow, I'd still have gained. The last time I dealt with a broker was in 1973! I'm all for brokers, but if your boat's as old as mine and not on the market, even pristine, there is no discernable value.
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  #163  
Old 07-29-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

david-
How you do a title search would depend on whether it is a documented vessel, or by state laws if it was only state registered. In any case you might start by calling the folks who issue the title to see if they have any suggestions.
But you might also want the sale contract (especially if you are drawing up a private one) to expressly state that the seller is conveying free and clear title, with no known encumbrances or liens, and that they not you will be responsible if any such liens are filed or discovered based on the time when they owned the boat. That shouldn't be a problem to anyone who knows he hasn't incurred the wrath of tradesmen or bankers.
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  #164  
Old 07-30-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

From the YBAA Yacht Purchase and Sale Agreement form, referencing the word "title":

5. ... The closing of the sale shall be deemed completed when:
A. All documents necessary to transfer good and absolute title to the YACHT have been received by the BUYER, or by the SELLING BROKER on behalf of the BUYER;

8. SELLER’S REPRESENTATIONS: The SELLER warrants and/or agrees as follows:
A. That he has full power and legal authority to execute and perform this Agreement, that he has good and marketable title to the YACHT, and that, if necessary, he will obtain permission, prior to closing, from any authority to sell the YACHT,

E. To hold harmless and defend the BUYER and BROKERS against any and all claims incurred prior to closing that may impair or adversely affect the BUYER’s receipt, use, and possession of the YACHT, including BUYER’s condition survey of YACHT and SELLER’S possession of good and absolute title to YACHT, and to assume all costs incident to defending the BUYER and BROKERS against such claims, including their reasonable attorney’s fees.


David, in the same agreement this is what it says regarding buyer default:

12. DEFAULT BY BUYER: The BUYER and SELLER agree that the amount of damages sustainable in the event of a default by the BUYER are not capable of ascertainment. Therefore, in the event that the BUYER, after accepting the YACHT under the terms of this agreement, fails to fulfill any or all of the obligations set forth in paragraphs #5 and #9, the deposit shall be retained by the SELLER as liquidated and agreed damages and the BUYER and SELLER shall be relieved of all obligations under the Agreement. This sum shall be divided equally (50%/50%) between the SELLER and the BROKERS after all expenses incurred against the YACHT by the BUYER have been paid. The BROKERS’ share shall not exceed the amount the BROKERS would have received had the sale been completed.

But it seems 8E contradicts 12. If I'm reading it right, if the seller sues because the buyer defaults, the seller has to "hold harmless and defend the buyer and brokers against any and all claims..." and "assume all costs incident to defending the buyer."

If no one knows of the defaulting buyer having to pay up, maybe this is why.
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  #165  
Old 07-30-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
From the YBAA Yacht Purchase and Sale Agreement form, referencing the word "title":

5. ... The closing of the sale shall be deemed completed when:
A. All documents necessary to transfer good and absolute title to the YACHT have been received by the BUYER, or by the SELLING BROKER on behalf of the BUYER;

8. SELLER’S REPRESENTATIONS: The SELLER warrants and/or agrees as follows:
A. That he has full power and legal authority to execute and perform this Agreement, that he has good and marketable title to the YACHT, and that, if necessary, he will obtain permission, prior to closing, from any authority to sell the YACHT,

E. To hold harmless and defend the BUYER and BROKERS against any and all claims incurred prior to closing that may impair or adversely affect the BUYER’s receipt, use, and possession of the YACHT, including BUYER’s condition survey of YACHT and SELLER’S possession of good and absolute title to YACHT, and to assume all costs incident to defending the BUYER and BROKERS against such claims, including their reasonable attorney’s fees.


David, in the same agreement this is what it says regarding buyer default:

12. DEFAULT BY BUYER: The BUYER and SELLER agree that the amount of damages sustainable in the event of a default by the BUYER are not capable of ascertainment. Therefore, in the event that the BUYER, after accepting the YACHT under the terms of this agreement, fails to fulfill any or all of the obligations set forth in paragraphs #5 and #9, the deposit shall be retained by the SELLER as liquidated and agreed damages and the BUYER and SELLER shall be relieved of all obligations under the Agreement. This sum shall be divided equally (50%/50%) between the SELLER and the BROKERS after all expenses incurred against the YACHT by the BUYER have been paid. The BROKERS’ share shall not exceed the amount the BROKERS would have received had the sale been completed.

But it seems 8E contradicts 12. If I'm reading it right, if the seller sues because the buyer defaults, the seller has to "hold harmless and defend the buyer and brokers against any and all claims..." and "assume all costs incident to defending the buyer."

If no one knows of the defaulting buyer having to pay up, maybe this is why.

Julie, you are reading it wrong. The indemnity given by the seller to the buyer is that the seller agrees to assume all risks relating to claims incurred prior to the closing, for example, unclear title (the seller still owes money on a loan he used to buy the boat; if the bank now sues the new owner for repayment, the seller has to make it good), any liens (the mechanic who installed the new engine is still owed $), or anything like that. It does not include any claims incurred by the buyer's own actions (like default). Such clauses are common in all contracts for sales of major items (including real estate).
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  #166  
Old 07-30-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

mstern is correct. Clause 8 is directed towards the seller and clause 12 is directed towards the buyer.

Your broker should be able to explain this contract to you.
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  #167  
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
I'm pretty sure the broker I know just hangs on to the 10% deposit check until the closing when it becomes his.
Cuts down on paperwork.
Is this illegal, I not sure I see anything wrong with it.

He deals with mostly 50,000 and below boats so maybe that is the reason.

Do you have any examples of any buyer who lost their deposit. IE did not get the boat and did not get their 10% deposit back.
I thought it was pretty much standard practice that no matter the reason if the closing didn't happen the deposit was returned.
What has been your experience?
All states have laws regarding escrow accounts, the dollar amount of the sale not withstanding.

An undeposited check is worthless for enforcing the contract as it can be cancelled at any time so it offers no protection.

Getting your money back after the cancellation of the sale is governed by what is in the ratified purchase agreement. It is not automatic. A properly worded agreement should spell out what happens in the case of default and also define what default would be..

Last edited by sailpower; 3 Weeks Ago at 11:39 AM.
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  #168  
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Last I heard, banks charged money on escrow accounts. So if a small broker wanted to open an escrow account, it would cost him money. Plus perhaps a piece of everything deposited in it. Making it simpler and cheaper to just put the check in the draw and see what happens.

Maybe not as professional, maybe not a good way to find out if the check is worth anything, but I'm sure that would work for some folks.

"An undeposited check is worthless for enforcing the contract as it can be cancelled at any time so"
Oh, the laws about checks, and offers, and contracts...they keep attorneys in all fifty states and all eleven insular possessions busy enough.
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  #169  
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
Any tips on how to do a title search on a boat?

I have heard of a couple people getting burned by old bills due.
In the case of a CG documented vessel liens are generally attached via the document. For a $25 fee the CG will do an abstract search of a particular vessel and send you the results.

USCG National Vessel Documentation Center, Fee Page

This is not 100% foolproof (nothing is) as there may be state liens as well particularly in the case of undocumented vessels. For that reason it might be advisable to do a UCC lien search in any state where the vessel is known to have been. Again this is also not foolproof as it is contingent on knowing the history of the vessel but it is generally not practical to search all fifty states.
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  #170  
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Last I heard, banks charged money on escrow accounts. So if a small broker wanted to open an escrow account, it would cost him money. Plus perhaps a piece of everything deposited in it. Making it simpler and cheaper to just put the check in the draw and see what happens.

Maybe not as professional, maybe not a good way to find out if the check is worth anything, but I'm sure that would work for some folks.
Maybe, but it would be illegal in any state that I am familiar with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"An undeposited check is worthless for enforcing the contract as it can be cancelled at any time so"
Oh, the laws about checks, and offers, and contracts...they keep attorneys in all fifty states and all eleven insular possessions busy enough.
True enough that.
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