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  #181  
Old 07-30-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

A seller would be wise to choose the yard at which the boat will be hauled and have the haul and launch paid in advance. A buyer should have no problem with pre-paying this. There is no way for them to get out of the obligation and the good faith deposit will be fully retained by the brokers anyway and should not be available for this. I have this vague recollection that I was actually required to pay the yard in advance at some point, although, I believe it was the yard's requirement. I was hundreds of miles away and they probably thought they would never collect, if I balked, and they didn't know me.

On the other hand, I have a real curiosity over whether the surveyor can legally attach the boat, if they were contracted by the buyer. They didn't improve the boat, so I would find it unlikely. Still, I would be interested and may research it.

Brokers haven't been cashing these checks right away since long before the internet was around. Maybe the seller even decides to back out before they sign the contract. What is the percentage of deals that die after an offer is accepted. I will bet it's quite high and an active broker would rightfully become jaded.
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  #182  
Old 07-30-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
A seller would be wise to choose the yard at which the boat will be hauled and have the haul and launch paid in advance. A buyer should have no problem with pre-paying this. There is no way for them to get out of the obligation and the good faith deposit will be fully retained by the brokers anyway and should not be available for this. I have this vague recollection that I was actually required to pay the yard in advance at some point, although, I believe it was the yard's requirement. I was hundreds of miles away and they probably thought they would never collect, if I balked, and they didn't know me.
I have bought quite a few boats over the years, and not once has the seller paid for, chosen the yard or made the appointment for my survey or surveyor. Were those to be terms of the sale, I would look dimly at the deal and wonder why.

It is incumbent on the prudent buyer to arrange his own inspections, choose the yard and indeed pay for it, often ahead of time or certainly at the inspection. I actually had two inspections that the yard would not let me in to the pit without word that the haulout and such were paid in full.

Similarly, I have had my surveyor tell me that there are showstoppers on the visual in the water inspection that would render useless the haulout and I stopped the survey there. I have also had the yard notify ME, no one else, that they see an issue that needs to be addressed. Would "I" like it handled while in the sling, or if not sure about the sale - do it later. Same with bottom painting- I have asked the yard before hand, should the survey be OK, can we paint the bottom later in the afternoon or set and block the boat while it is in the sling.

Of course the risk is the seller may get something for nothing from me, but I usually have the deal locked in before work proceeds.

You are the Buyer, use your power to get what you want, and where you want the boat gone over.

YMMV
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  #183  
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

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Originally Posted by kd3pc View Post
I have bought quite a few boats over the years, and not once has the seller paid for, chosen the yard or made the appointment for my survey or surveyor. ......
I can see how the phrasing of my first sentence, may have lead you to believe that's what I meant. But, my second sentence made it pretty clear that the buyer should be pre-paying.

So, the buyer should pay, and arrange the surveyor.

However, it is very common for the seller to insist on who will haul it out or at least limit the options. Who cares for it, has the right equipment and how far they are willing to allow it to travel all factor in. As a buyer, I never really cared who pulled it. It was the surveyor not the travel lift that mattered.
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  #184  
Old 07-30-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
A seller would be wise to choose the yard at which the boat will be hauled and have the haul and launch paid in advance. A buyer should have no problem with pre-paying this. There is no way for them to get out of the obligation and the good faith deposit will be fully retained by the brokers anyway and should not be available for this. I have this vague recollection that I was actually required to pay the yard in advance at some point, although, I believe it was the yard's requirement. I was hundreds of miles away and they probably thought they would never collect, if I balked, and they didn't know me.

On the other hand, I have a real curiosity over whether the surveyor can legally attach the boat, if they were contracted by the buyer. They didn't improve the boat, so I would find it unlikely. Still, I would be interested and may research it.

Brokers haven't been cashing these checks right away since long before the internet was around. Maybe the seller even decides to back out before they sign the contract. What is the percentage of deals that die after an offer is accepted. I will bet it's quite high and an active broker would rightfully become jaded.
You may be correct. Surveyor may not prove to be the best example. I have emailed our corporate counsel and will report what he says.

In any event, James Wilson gave you a couple of pretty good answers and he is apparently an attorney.

Anecdotally, I don’t know of a company in FL, MD or NJ who doesn’t clear funds prior to proceeding to contingencies. Admittedly I am not familiar with all companies particularly the smaller ones and I suppose there are always cowboys but I was most definitely in the industry prior to the internet.

I don’t see the downside that you seem concerned about?

BTW, it is quite common for the buyer to pay for the haul/hang/launch and any extras that come up before the boat goes back in the water and yes, in my experience, the seller usually selects the yard.
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Last edited by sailpower; 07-30-2013 at 08:10 PM.
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  #185  
Old 07-31-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

I remember the haul out/survey/purchase process to be a collaborative effort by all parties seeking to make a mutually beneficial transaction. Not much drama in my case. No smoke and mirrors, everybody did what they said they would do. I paid for the haul out before hand, the surveyor was contacted by me and we arranged a time in conjunction with the boat yard and the owners schedule. Yard selection was the closest to the marina, made by the owner. Owner and I discussed the survey findings, agreed on a course of action and finalized the deal with a handshake and beer. Maybe it was old school. I liked it.
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  #186  
Old 07-31-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

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Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Julie seems prone to allowing the broker to control the sale.

The broker's advice to ask the broker about the meaning of the contract is quite comical.
I think you're forgetting what it was like the first time a person enters into the boat buying world. You decide to look at boats and usually the first person to greet you is a broker. If not, then it's an owner. Either way, both will "educate" you. I took that and presented it here and elsewhere to get feedback. Then I began getting an education from other perspectives. It's a process. There was never any intention to allow one side of the equation provide all the information.

FWIW James, I have read many of your posts and they offer a different perspective from that of the broker, one that any boat buying newb needs to hear. When I began seriously looking a month & a half ago, I wasn't even in kindergarten. Today I feel I at least have graduated the 8th grade. We're trying to get as educated as we can while looking for the right boat and that will continue. My father was an attorney. It's drilled into my head you never sign anything you don't fully understand and agree with. And I won't.

While many here have encouraged moving into the offer stage of the process, this portion of the thread shows how important it is to understand the legal aspects of the process as well as the perspectives of all the parties. That's why I was so confused why anyone would suggest making an offer without any mention of understanding the legalities first. From what I've been reading here, even for the experienced boat buyer, the legalities of the boat buying process are not crystal clear.

The more I read, the more I'm seeing an attorney familiar with marine sales contracts (didn't even know they existed until recently) is far more valuable than a selling broker (as in, "no contest"). But where do you find one?
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  #187  
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Julie,

You really don't need an attorney, although, I won't talk you out of one.

In the standard contract, the buyer holds ALL the cards until the acceptance date. If you don't trust they parties with the money (when necessary to pay it), just insist on an escrow agent, who gets a copy of the contract too. No escrow agent, no deal. Simple.
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  #188  
Old 07-31-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

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Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post

The more I read, the more I'm seeing an attorney familiar with marine sales contracts (didn't even know they existed until recently) is far more valuable than a selling broker (as in, "no contest"). But where do you find one?
I applaud your approach to the boat buying process. I am not advising everyone to seek counsel for boat buying, but you should understand the limitations of the brokers' contract, how you might modify it to suit your needs, and your ability to use your own contract.

The main problem with the brokers' contract is the buyer spends a considerable amount of money to understand the condition of what he or she is actually buying. It is possible that both the seller and the broker are aware of conditions, that if revealed to the buyer, would end the sale without the buyer spending all that money first.

If I spent several thousand dollars on a haul out and survey only to discover a defect that the seller (and broker) probably knew about, that killed the deal, my view is the parties who failed to reveal the defect should be liable for reimbursement of costs.

How about using the Golden Rule in business instead of trying to screw everyone over? Why not reveal what you know about your boat up front? That would certainly limit the back end negotiation after the survey. That way, everyone knows what is being bought and sold up front.

I recommend Avvo.com - The right attorney makes the difference for finding attorneys, because it includes client reviews and endorsements from other attorneys:Chicago Maritime Lawyers. Find the Best Maritime Attorney in Chicago, IL - Avvo.com

If you want a lawyer to prepare a sales contract or assist you with the transaction, you would probably be just as well served in a purchase transaction by finding an Illinois-licensed lawyer who works with contracts and sails as you would be by a maritime law lawyer.
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Last edited by jameswilson29; 07-31-2013 at 07:07 AM.
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  #189  
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

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Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
.......If I spent several thousand dollars on a haul out and survey only to discover a defect that the seller (and broker) probably knew about, that killed the deal, my view is the parties who failed to reveal the defect should be liable for reimbursement of costs.......
How would you write a contract that defined what they probably knew about? While a reasonable thought, I don't think it can work from a practical standpoint. Every time I find something wrong with my boat, I didn't know it yesterday.
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  #190  
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

When my dad had his boat in Chicago, I knew that boat inside and out. Few surveyors could have provided better information about the condition of that boat than me.

James, you are absolutely right. The owner has knowledge of the condition of the boat. And they should divulge what they know up front. If they don't because they fear it will devalue their boat, aren't they offering the boat for sale fraudulently?

A real estate attorney told me if you don't divulge problems a homeowner should reasonably know, you could be liable for the cost of fixing it. Why shouldn't the same be true with boats?

Instead, the industry creates a system that creates jobs, and it's the buyer that supports it. There's little solace in the buyer being able to back out of the deal. They will never recoup the costs they incurred or the lost time. And if they walk and move on to find another boat, they will incur those costs again.
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