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post #191 of 273 Old 07-31-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Unless I'm mistaken, Julie is buying a boat with the approx value of a car. Find one you like, make an offer, have it inspected/surveyed, decide if you still want it, pay for it.

It just shouldn't be this complicated.


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post #192 of 273 Old 07-31-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
When my dad had his boat in Chicago, I knew that boat inside and out. Few surveyors could have provided better information about the condition of that boat than me.....
Yet, you must have found things in need of repair all the time. What if the survey was done on the same day you would have found your next problem? Think the buyer would believe you?

Sure, there are dishonest people. It's just nearly impossible to prove.
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post #193 of 273 Old 07-31-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
How would you write a contract that defined what they probably knew about? While a reasonable thought, I don't think it can work from a practical standpoint. Every time I find something wrong with my boat, I didn't know it yesterday.
CONTRACT OF SALE
THIS CONTRACT OF SALE is made this ____ day of ______________, 20____, by and between __________________________________________________ (“the Seller”) and _________________________________________________ (“the Buyer”).
WITNESSETH: that for and in consideration of the mutual promises and covenants contained herein and other good and valuable consideration, the receipt and sufficiency of which are hereby acknowledged by the parties, Seller and Buyer agree as follows:
1. Property. Seller agrees to sell to Buyer and Buyer agrees to purchase from Seller a ____ _____________________ sailboat, “______________”, hull identification number __________________________ along with all property attached to and enclosed in the vessel, including but not limited to the following ( all of which, the vessel and the property, to be referred to as “the Sailboat”):
a. All standing and running rigging, mast, boom, spreaders, stays, shrouds, traveler, mainsheet, jib sheets, ________ winches, ____ winch handles, cleats, traveler, and boom vang;
b. Main sail and ____________ jibs, sail bags and mainsail cover;
c. ____________________________________ engine and gas tank;
d. Electrical system, wiring and electronics, marine battery, VHF radio, depth finder, cabin lights, battery switch, running lights, and _______________________________;
d. Below decks/cabin furnishings, equipment, cushions for all berths, cooler, _________ toilet with _____________, foul weather jackets/gear, books, charts, and __________________;
e. Safety gear/equipment: ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ electric and manual bilge pumps, lifelines, stanchions, bow pulpit, stern pulpit, life preservers, flotation cushions, bell, flares, horn and ________________________________;
f. Anchor, anchor chain, and rode, mooring lines, cleats, ____ fenders; and,
g. Other: __________________________________________________ _______.
2. Price. The total sales price for the Sailboat is _____________________________________
Dollars ($___________.00). Seller acknowledges receipt of an earnest money deposit check in the amount of __________________________ Dollars ($______) from Buyer, with the balance of the total sales price to be paid by Buyer to Seller at closing.
3. Seller’s Representations: Seller represents and warrants the following: that Seller has clear title to the Sailboat, free and clear of any liens, levies, charges, assessments, or attachments; that Seller is the sole owner, with full and complete authority to enter into this contract of sale and to transfer title to the vessel to Buyer by a certificate of title; that the Sailboat is in normal operating condition for a vessel of its age; and that Seller has no knowledge of any material defect(s) in the Sailboat, patent or latent, except as follows:__________________________________________ _ __________________________________________________ ___________.
4. Contingencies: The sale is subject to a satisfactory marine survey or professional inspection, and a satisfactory sea trial by Buyer, both to be completed at Buyer’s option and expense by ____________________. Seller shall make the Sailboat available for the survey and inspection and Seller shall cause the Sailboat to be placed in the water and ready prior to the sea trial at Seller’s expense. In the event that either the survey/inspection or sea trial are not satisfactory to Buyer in his sole discretion, then the earnest money deposit shall be forthwith refunded to Buyer.
5. Closing: This sale shall close on _____________________ at _____________________, at which time Buyer shall deliver to Seller a certified or cashier’s check for the balance of the Sales Price in return for Seller’s transfer of the title to Sailboat to Buyer, by endorsement and delivery of a certificate of title to Buyer and by Seller’s transfer to Buyer of any and all keys, locks, and operational devices. The Seller shall deliver and transfer the Sailboat to Buyer at closing, launched/re-launched in the water at _________________________________________. Risk of loss remains with Seller until delivery of title to Buyer.
6. Addresses: Seller and Buyer each warrant and represent to each other that his residential address and telephone number are as follows:
Seller:___________________________________________ _________________________
Buyer: __________________________________________________ __________________
7. Modification: This contract may only be modified by a writing signed by the parties.
WITNESS the following signatures and seals:
SELLER: BUYER:

__________________________(SEAL) ___________________________(SEAL)


__________________________(SEAL) ___________________________(SEAL)
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post #194 of 273 Old 07-31-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

There are different ways of proving someone knew about something. Some things would have to be known by the seller or his agent, for example, a severe grounding that damaged the keel. Some things the seller may have attempted to repair and decided not to because of the cost, for example, a problem with the inboard engine that was concealed by a clean up or additive, instead of fixed. You could find information from third parties - the marina, a mechanic, posts on forums like Sailnet, where the owner sought services or advice, etc., etc.

Asking a seller to represent that his or her vessel is in "normal operating condition for a vessel of its age.." is not asking too much. These representations are basically flushing out the seller who is attempting to get rid of a problem boat by making it someone else's problem.

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post #195 of 273 Old 07-31-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Unless I'm mistaken, Julie is buying a boat with the approx value of a car. Find one you like, make an offer, have it inspected/surveyed, decide if you still want it, pay for it.

It just shouldn't be this complicated.
It's sad to see this process become so complicated with the need to engage an attorney and the further impossible requirement to have some sort of explicit guarantee on a boats condition. Glad I escaped from your world. Get out and go sailing, a few miles under your keel will fix what ails you!
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post #196 of 273 Old 07-31-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
CONTRACT OF SALE
THIS CONTRACT OF SALE is made this ____ day of ______________, 20____, by and between __________________________________________________ (“the Seller”) and _________________________________________________ (“the Buyer”).
WITNESSETH: that for and in consideration of the mutual promises and covenants contained herein and other good and valuable consideration, the receipt and sufficiency of which are hereby acknowledged by the parties, Seller and Buyer agree as follows:
1. Property. Seller agrees to sell to Buyer and Buyer agrees to purchase from Seller a ____ _____________________ sailboat, “______________”, hull identification number __________________________ along with all property attached to and enclosed in the vessel, including but not limited to the following ( all of which, the vessel and the property, to be referred to as “the Sailboat”):
a. All standing and running rigging, mast, boom, spreaders, stays, shrouds, traveler, mainsheet, jib sheets, ________ winches, ____ winch handles, cleats, traveler, and boom vang;
b. Main sail and ____________ jibs, sail bags and mainsail cover;
c. ____________________________________ engine and gas tank;
d. Electrical system, wiring and electronics, marine battery, VHF radio, depth finder, cabin lights, battery switch, running lights, and _______________________________;
d. Below decks/cabin furnishings, equipment, cushions for all berths, cooler, _________ toilet with _____________, foul weather jackets/gear, books, charts, and __________________;
e. Safety gear/equipment: ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ electric and manual bilge pumps, lifelines, stanchions, bow pulpit, stern pulpit, life preservers, flotation cushions, bell, flares, horn and ________________________________;
f. Anchor, anchor chain, and rode, mooring lines, cleats, ____ fenders; and,
g. Other: __________________________________________________ _______.
2. Price. The total sales price for the Sailboat is _____________________________________
Dollars ($___________.00). Seller acknowledges receipt of an earnest money deposit check in the amount of __________________________ Dollars ($______) from Buyer, with the balance of the total sales price to be paid by Buyer to Seller at closing.
3. Seller’s Representations: Seller represents and warrants the following: that Seller has clear title to the Sailboat, free and clear of any liens, levies, charges, assessments, or attachments; that Seller is the sole owner, with full and complete authority to enter into this contract of sale and to transfer title to the vessel to Buyer by a certificate of title; that the Sailboat is in normal operating condition for a vessel of its age; and that Seller has no knowledge of any material defect(s) in the Sailboat, patent or latent, except as follows:__________________________________________ _ __________________________________________________ ___________.
4. Contingencies: The sale is subject to a satisfactory marine survey or professional inspection, and a satisfactory sea trial by Buyer, both to be completed at Buyer’s option and expense by ____________________. Seller shall make the Sailboat available for the survey and inspection and Seller shall cause the Sailboat to be placed in the water and ready prior to the sea trial at Seller’s expense. In the event that either the survey/inspection or sea trial are not satisfactory to Buyer in his sole discretion, then the earnest money deposit shall be forthwith refunded to Buyer.
5. Closing: This sale shall close on _____________________ at _____________________, at which time Buyer shall deliver to Seller a certified or cashier’s check for the balance of the Sales Price in return for Seller’s transfer of the title to Sailboat to Buyer, by endorsement and delivery of a certificate of title to Buyer and by Seller’s transfer to Buyer of any and all keys, locks, and operational devices. The Seller shall deliver and transfer the Sailboat to Buyer at closing, launched/re-launched in the water at _________________________________________. Risk of loss remains with Seller until delivery of title to Buyer.
6. Addresses: Seller and Buyer each warrant and represent to each other that his residential address and telephone number are as follows:
Seller:___________________________________________ _________________________
Buyer: __________________________________________________ __________________
7. Modification: This contract may only be modified by a writing signed by the parties.
WITNESS the following signatures and seals:
SELLER: BUYER:

__________________________(SEAL) ___________________________(SEAL)


__________________________(SEAL) ___________________________(SEAL)
Please define "Normal operating condition for a vessel of it's age" seems like you are opening a huge can of worms with this statement. The no knowledge part is a bit of a mystery too. Geez, I've done extensive months long refits in foreign lands, only to to discover "something else", which I had no knowledge of before departing......I'm one anal mofo on this stuff too....and sheet still happens. All these guarantees and warranty's, where of's and there too's, their in's and what for's, surprised there is no who begat who, maybe the rocker and and a ball of yarn and knitting needles would better suit all parties. I'm about three sheets to the wind so I'll leave it there for now...


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post #197 of 273 Old 07-31-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

On the last number of yachting world there is an article that is interesting to tis discussion. A guy bought a 1997 Halberg Rassy 46 for 180 000 euros. The boat needed a refit to come to its normal sailing and safety potential. Te refit costed 320 000 euros. Total cost 520 000 euros.

The guy is very pleased because a new HR 48 with a similar kind of equipment costs 950 000 euros.

I would say that there are advantages and disadvantages. Obviously the new design is a better performer in all aspects but more than that (that is just a smaller point) he is never going to recover all that money that he spent in refitting the older boat, that probably has a market value under the price of the refit while the new boat will have a much higher used value in proportion to its cost as new.

As a deal, it is a bad deal. If he does not have the money for a new one or a more recent used boat not in need of a refit and he is sure that he is not going to sell that boat for a long time and that's the boat he really wants, it could be a good solution for that sailor, but never in what regards value of the boat on the market.
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
It's sad to see this process become so complicated with the need to engage an attorney and the further impossible requirement to have some sort of explicit guarantee on a boats condition. Glad I escaped from your world. Get out and go sailing, a few miles under your keel will fix what ails you!
Dude, this isn't MY world. Julie is in her own world of paranoia and paperwork.
As Minne stated, for the amount of money they are looking to spend, this amount of paranoia and paperwork is just hilarious.

If we were looking at a purchase price equvilant to a house (especially if they were planning on selling a home and moving aboard), I might be onboard with this level of...insanity.
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

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Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
Please define "Normal operating condition for a vessel of it's age"
It is undefinable.

As several people has said before, don't over complicate the process. It is rather simple.
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post #200 of 273 Old 07-31-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
Please define "Normal operating condition for a vessel of it's age"
As a buyer, I would be concerned about a seller who would not agree to this. "What exactly are you hiding from me about this boat?"

"Normal operating condition" means,

1. It is not brand new and is not perfect;
2. Although it is aged, it does operate, it is not inoperable;
3. The operating condition is consistent with its age;
4. The seller does not know of any major material defect that would imminently impair its functioning.

Look at your marine survey - the marine surveyor gives an overall opinion of the boat's condition for its age. "Normal operating condition" would be "average" and functioning. That still allows for imperfections consistent with the age, or things that need to be addressed, but do not impair the functioning of the boat.

So a forty year old fiberglass boat with a twenty year old inboard engine is not perfect, but it works, and the boat would have the normal features of a forty year old fiberglass boat - faded, spider-cracked gel coat, oxidized metal coatings, aged standing rigging, etc. The twenty year old inboard might have a slowly leaking rear seal, lower compression, and/or burn some oil, but it still runs and the seller does not know of any defect (cracked block, water leaking into the oil, etc.) that would require immediate replacement.

It is certainly possible that a forty year old boat or a twenty year old engine could develop a problem that would prevent it from normal functioning the next day. This is not like a new home warranty, a new car warranty or a new boat warranty, the seller is not guaranteeing its operation for any particular period of time, just that it works now.

If you do not want to make any representations about the condition of your boat, that's fine. Sell it "as is" with no statements of fact about it, or sell it on eBay. The real problem is that sellers want to make all kinds of representations without any liability for the buyer's costs in reasonably relying on those representations. That may work with a sucker, but an informed buyer should not fall for that ploy.

Last edited by jameswilson29; 07-31-2013 at 12:02 PM.
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