What Is A Boat Really Worth? - Page 21 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree143Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #201  
Old 07-31-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 9,490
Thanks: 10
Thanked 159 Times in 145 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
.......that the Sailboat is in normal operating condition for a vessel of its age; and that Seller has no knowledge of any material defect(s) in the Sailboat, patent or latent, except as follows:.......
Good example of form over function. In order to actually make demand on default of this provision, the buyer would have to first establish the definition of the standard to a court and then prove it wasn't met. In Julie's case, those legal fees would grossly exceed the value of the survey costs she was trying to recover.

Further, this contract neither defines the Seller's right to remedy, which the courts would either not like and void the provision or potentially define themselves, nor the consequence of default. More legal fees to sort it all out later.
davidpm likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #202  
Old 07-31-2013
JulieMor's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 853
Thanks: 47
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 4
JulieMor is on a distinguished road
Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Unless I'm mistaken, Julie is buying a boat with the approx value of a car. Find one you like, make an offer, have it inspected/surveyed, decide if you still want it, pay for it.
And if you don't want it you're out the cost of the survey, haul out and whatever else you paid for to find the problem(s) that killed the deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
It just shouldn't be this complicated.
It's not complicated at all. It's just run-of-the-mill CYA. You cover yourself when you buy a house. You cover yourself when you buy a car. Why shouldn't you cover yourself when you buy a boat? I really don't see any problem with this. It's done all the time for major purchases.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #203  
Old 08-01-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 9,490
Thanks: 10
Thanked 159 Times in 145 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
And if you don't want it you're out the cost of the survey, haul out and whatever else you paid for to find the problem(s) that killed the deal.
That's exactly right. Be glad it is acceptable to do such a detailed inspection when buying a boat. Losing these monies is much less than the cost of a lemon.


Quote:
It's not complicated at all. It's just run-of-the-mill CYA. You cover yourself when you buy a house. You cover yourself when you buy a car. Why shouldn't you cover yourself when you buy a boat? I really don't see any problem with this. It's done all the time for major purchases.
The cover in each of these isn't nearly the guarantee of the yacht/survey rights. Find one yu like, hire a surveyor and press forward.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #204  
Old 08-01-2013
davidpm's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Madison
Posts: 3,818
Thanks: 206
Thanked 50 Times in 42 Posts
Rep Power: 8
davidpm is on a distinguished road
Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

A lot of great ideas have been expressed and their is a lot to learn from probably hundreds of years and hundreds of boat deals the posters have collectively brought to this thread.

I think that to a very large extent a 35' or larger boat is practically unknowable. The owner doesn't know everything, the surveyor can't find out everything and the buyer knows the least.
The reason we have had so many posts is that their are so many issues involved along with a significant amount of money.

1. Every boat has surprises (see above)
2. Every surprise costs a lot of money.
3. Every seller has different moral values. One seller would disclose a hard grounding that was properly repaired. Another seller may feel that since the repair was made professionally the boat is a good as new and mentioning it would just worry a jittery buyer. Another seller self inspected and figured their was no damage and keeps his mouth shut. He is right or maybe wrong. How hard was hard? Is it a lead or iron keel? Does the bilge leak?

I'm not defending hiding a defect to sell a boat but so often the defect is opinion. How soft is a soft deck? How much water is the bilge is allowed? How much smoke of what color is the engine allowed to make for how long after starting?

I'm going to make a controversial statement that even I don't necessarily believe.
It might however spark some new thoughts.

I would guess that if every seller and broker and surveyor told every new boat buyer everything that they knew, thought of and were worried about for a given boat that no boats would ever be sold as all buyers would be scared off.

It is almost as if ignorance is a necessary part of the buying process. No matter how much experience you have even if you have 50 years surveying experience when you buy your own boat the ignorance will kick in an you will convince yourself that the boat only needs x when if you were not emotionally involved you would estimate 3x.

There is so much judgement and opinion as to what is suitable and what has to be replaced that the current process whereby the seller mostly keeps his own counsel and the surveyor does the best he can and the buyer foots the bill is not likely to change anytime soon.

What could be useful is for someone to create an on-line repository of surveys for boats for sale.
If you paid $600 for a survey and rejected the boat and I was interested in the boat I would be willing to pay $100 to see your survey even if it was a couple months old.

I would probably want to buy my own survey but for $100 bucks it would be interesting to see why you rejected it.

I doubt if a website like this could survive as the market is so small and people are so emotional and a lot of people if they liked the boat would want to sit on it until the boat price came down.
__________________
The lesson from the Icarus story is not about human failing.
It is a lesson about the limitations of wax as an adhesive.
If you have an engineering problem solve it.

Last edited by davidpm; 08-01-2013 at 12:47 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #205  
Old 08-01-2013
aeventyr60's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Andaman Sea
Posts: 1,661
Thanks: 7
Thanked 37 Times in 35 Posts
Rep Power: 4
aeventyr60 is on a distinguished road
Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
As a buyer, I would be concerned about a seller who would not agree to this. "What exactly are you hiding from me about this boat?"

"Normal operating condition" means,

1. It is not brand new and is not perfect;
2. Although it is aged, it does operate, it is not inoperable;
3. The operating condition is consistent with its age;
4. The seller does not know of any major material defect that would imminently impair its functioning.

Look at your marine survey - the marine surveyor gives an overall opinion of the boat's condition for its age. "Normal operating condition" would be "average" and functioning. That still allows for imperfections consistent with the age, or things that need to be addressed, but do not impair the functioning of the boat.

So a forty year old fiberglass boat with a twenty year old inboard engine is not perfect, but it works, and the boat would have the normal features of a forty year old fiberglass boat - faded, spider-cracked gel coat, oxidized metal coatings, aged standing rigging, etc. The twenty year old inboard might have a slowly leaking rear seal, lower compression, and/or burn some oil, but it still runs and the seller does not know of any defect (cracked block, water leaking into the oil, etc.) that would require immediate replacement.

It is certainly possible that a forty year old boat or a twenty year old engine could develop a problem that would prevent it from normal functioning the next day. This is not like a new home warranty, a new car warranty or a new boat warranty, the seller is not guaranteeing its operation for any particular period of time, just that it works now.

If you do not want to make any representations about the condition of your boat, that's fine. Sell it "as is" with no statements of fact about it, or sell it on eBay. The real problem is that sellers want to make all kinds of representations without any liability for the buyer's costs in reasonably relying on those representations. That may work with a sucker, but an informed buyer should not fall for that ploy.

Would you accept my "Above Normal Operating Condition for it's age boat", and pay me a premium? Would you pay a fraction of the upgrade costs to have a boat in this condition? No, I don't think so either. An informed buyer is still going to drive the cost down as low as he can get, and I believe people are actually walking away from some darn nice boats because they can not differentiate between the two.

In another thread a young guy just bought a nice Tartan in Chicago. Think he'd benefit more from some serious sailing discussions then this tired old horse.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



"Your dreams minus your doubts equals your net worth"

Life is a short journey, filled with emptiness and pain. Get all the sailing and booty you can.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #206  
Old 08-01-2013
jameswilson29's Avatar
Senior Smart Aleck
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 2,152
Thanks: 34
Thanked 70 Times in 65 Posts
Rep Power: 6
jameswilson29 is on a distinguished road
Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
Would you accept my "Above Normal Operating Condition for it's age boat", and pay me a premium? Would you pay a fraction of the upgrade costs to have a boat in this condition?
Yes, I would if it could be proven and is not mere puffery.

I bought my boat knowing that it had specific problems, revealed from a previous survey and my own, and many desirable features. Any knowledgeable buyer knows older boats are not perfect and have issues. I was o.k. with hull blisters, a worn stuffing box and a hull deflection in return for a working inboard diesel, bimini and wheel. Why not reveal and discuss the inevitable issues, instead of being sneaky about it?

Again, I have no problem with a seller who wants to sell "as is", at a DISCOUNT. A seller with a boat in cream puff condition should be happy to reveal that condition and receive a premium price.

The problem is the sellers who want to have it both ways, make misrepresentations about the condition without any potential liability for their statements. It is the buyer who spends all the money to discover the seller's deception.

The market has changed. Buyers are now in control and should negotiate the transaction to their advantage. Anyone who wants to be led around by the nose by a broker and told "this is the way we always do it", is free to be screwed for his or her ignorance.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #207  
Old 08-01-2013
Abysmally Stupid
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: MRE
Posts: 388
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
jorgenl is on a distinguished road
Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
And if you don't want it you're out the cost of the survey, haul out and whatever else you paid for to find the problem(s) that killed the deal.
A lot of folks here seem to be overly worried about being out the cost of a survey.

A survey is $20-25/ft which is less than $1K for a 40' boat. Haul out is added to that of course.

Welcome to the world of boat ownership.

$1K is only a boat buck. - better get used to spending some money.
davidpm and Minnewaska like this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #208  
Old 08-01-2013
BarryL's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,671
Thanks: 3
Thanked 32 Times in 29 Posts
Rep Power: 12
BarryL is on a distinguished road
Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgenl View Post
A lot of folks here seem to be overly worried about being out the cost of a survey.

A survey is $20-25/ft which is less than $1K for a 40' boat. Haul out is added to that of course.

Welcome to the world of boat ownership.

$1K is only a boat buck. - better get used to spending some money.
Yes and No. Yes the cost of a survey is small (tiny) potatoes compared to the cost of owning a boat. But no, you should not survey every boat that looks interesting. Certainly don't listen to a broker who say "make and offer and see what happens." You should only survey a boat that you truly truly want to own.

IMHO, the survey was a last sanity check so that I wasn't buying a piece of junk. When I bought my last (and still current) boat I told the broker "here is my offer, it's low, but it's honest and I promise that I'm not going to renegotiate after the survey. Either the boat passes or I walk away. So present my offer to the seller and let's see what happens." The owner accepted. The survey revealed a number of things that I needed to fix, but no real surprises. I wanted to know that the engine and trans were sound, that the hull, keel, and rudder were in good condition, and that the gear listed in the ad was indeed present on the boat. After that we closed on the boat and I sailed her home (in December, in the Northeast, but that's another story).

Barry
JulieMor likes this.
__________________
Barry Lenoble
Deep Blue C, 2002 C&C 110
Mt. Sinai, NY

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #209  
Old 08-02-2013
Abysmally Stupid
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: MRE
Posts: 388
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
jorgenl is on a distinguished road
Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryL View Post
Yes and No. Yes the cost of a survey is small (tiny) potatoes compared to the cost of owning a boat. But no, you should not survey every boat that looks interesting. Certainly don't listen to a broker who say "make and offer and see what happens." You should only survey a boat that you truly truly want to own.

I
I totally agree with you, of course you should not survey every boat that looks interesting. Nor should you make an offer on a boat that looks interesting.

You should only make an offer on boat and survey it if you truly intend to buy it (assuming nothing major comes up in the survey).

That's why we have surveys.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #210  
Old 08-02-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 406
Thanks: 9
Thanked 14 Times in 13 Posts
Rep Power: 2
TJC45 is on a distinguished road
Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgenl View Post
A lot of folks here seem to be overly worried about being out the cost of a survey.

A survey is $20-25/ft which is less than $1K for a 40' boat. Haul out is added to that of course.

Welcome to the world of boat ownership.

$1K is only a boat buck. - better get used to spending some money.
And down this road we go again. I agree, relative to the costs of boating that $1000 isn't all the money in the world. But it is exactly this attitude, "it's only $1000" that fuels the crazy way the boating world works.

The lack of upfront disclosure leads to many buyers wasting time and money on boats they would walk away from if the truth was disclosed upfront.

Just tell me up front that the engine isn't going to pass a compression test and let me decide if i still want to spend that $1000.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Boat worth price? cd25 Boat Review and Purchase Forum 12 08-06-2012 12:36 PM
Is this boat worth saving? dylanwinter1 General Discussion (sailing related) 18 05-31-2011 10:20 PM
Beachcat Sailing Series at Fort Worth Boat Club, Fort Worth, TX (The Beachcats) NewsReader News Feeds 0 02-12-2007 04:15 PM
Gift Boat--Worth it? Tikimama Boat Review and Purchase Forum 7 08-04-2003 12:07 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:47 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.