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  #31  
Old 07-17-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

I'm with Julie in that the banks set the market. Or, at least knows the true value of the boats on the market. They require a certain debt coverage and have to factor in recovery and remarketing costs. Still, if a major lender is only willing to cough up less than half the vessel's agreed upon selling price something is very wrong with that price.

I've said it once and i'll say it again, only in different terms - boat pricing is more hocus pocus than grounded in dependable market data. If 500 2011 Toyota Camry LE's go thru Manheim this week between $11,000 and $13,000 then that's the market every car dealer in the country can use to set prices. How many Pearson 303's gonna sell this week? Probably zero! Yet every boat broker in the country can tell you exactly what they are worth. How is it that they can do that?

The bank is, if nothing else, a good double check. Even if you have no intention of financing, it might not be a bad idea to see how much a bank would lend on your intended purchase.
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Last edited by TJC45; 07-18-2013 at 09:59 AM.
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  #32  
Old 07-17-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

^^^^ True that.
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  #33  
Old 07-17-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Re: the original thread caption - exactly what someone is willing to pay for it.

Not exactly an original statement but it is the simple truth. Prior to 2008 people were willing to pay more - a lot more - than they are today.

As far as I know, Soldboats.com is the most accurate valuation system out there. I had bootleg access to it a few years ago and was astounded at what boats actually sold for compared to asking prices. Very frequently the sale prices were 1/2 or less of asking, not 10% & 20% less - 50% to 70% less - huge differences.

If your broker doesn't have access to it, get a new broker.
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  #34  
Old 07-18-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Boating costs money.

On the averge for a 35 foot boat we spend 4500 a year for slip fees. If you haul in the winter add at least another 600 for that and storage. If you only spend 1500 a year on improvements , wax, fuel, parts you are up to 6600 dollars. We own Haleakula outright, but lets say you finance 50000 for 5% for 10 years your payments are 530/month or $6300 a year. So the cost per year is $12,000.

What will that boat be worth in 10 years. Well you've paid 63,000 and you'd be lucky to get 30,000 back. Remember this without spending money on improvements.

How many days a year do you use it? We use ours 30 weekends plus a 3 plus week vacation plus maybe another 10 days equalling 90 days. This is a lot compared to most. Pretty expensive for a hobby.

We all want 39 foot boats. We all want lots of room. What wil you sacrifice for that. Set you amount you can comfortably spend and look in tht range. It's a hole in the water money wise. Everyone says that....because its true.

You expectation of being able to sail this year is slowly closing. You live in Chicago not the Chesapeake. If this s a priority make it happen. If its a sidelight to a vacation or getting a road trip in is not the same as acutely pursuing it.

There are plenty of boats out there at reasonable prices. Time to get decisive and act.

Dave
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  #35  
Old 07-18-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobGallagher View Post
Most sellers or owners don't like to agree with NADA, but, in fact it is what it is. An accurate representation of what a boat is worth to someone who needs to get a loan.
But the real point is that a very large percentage of boat buyers do not get loans. That means that while NADA and lenders may set the limit that a small percentage of buyers can pay, they do not, and cannot actually set the market price.

As for using Other People's Money. Yeah. It's a great idea. But it does not work when you are buying a depreciating asset that will not be used for generating revenue. In that case, as hellosailor said, it is the bank that is using YOUR money--not the other way around.
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  #36  
Old 07-18-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleheadMd View Post
You completely misinterpreted my statement.
It's annoying when someone else puts words into your mouth, isn't it? Now you know how I feel about the statements you make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleheadMd View Post
I'm saying that YOU have been given the same advice here, but apparently didn't understand or believe what anyone was telling you until you spoke to brokers and surveyors, and suddenly you're here sharing the same wisdom with us that forum members have given you as if you've had some kind of epiphany.
I think you are more emotionally invested in my boat buying/owning process than I am. But let me explain how I work.

There's a thing called "getting a second opinion." My dad was diagnosed with cancer. His doctor recommended drastic treatment. He got a second opinion and that made more sense to him so he went with it and lived 13 more good years. The first doctor was insulted. My dad was happy. It's smart to get a second opinion.

There's also a something called research. If you get all your information from one source, you haven't done very good research. When you get your information from many sources, your research is more solid, especially when it comes from those who make a living at the thing you're researching.

I have not read one post here that talks about what the lenders are using for boat value nor their take on how they value upgrades. What they said was a revelation to me. That's why I shared it here. Please don't feel offended or misinterpret my intentions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleheadMd View Post
You are rationalizing yourself right out of your dream.
Again, your opinion, and you would be wrong. My dream is not to own a boat. My dream is to own a boat I can enjoy, and there's a lot that goes along with that.

This is how I go about all major purchases. Some call it analytical, some call it thorough and some call it rational. (ahem!) I don't see anything wrong with any of that. I will know pretty much exactly what I'm getting into and when I find the right boat and make the purchase, there will be no surprises and no regrets, or at least much fewer of each.

On another thread I made the silly remark this won't be an emotional decision and justifiably got called out on it. But apparently some think, for me, this process is too unemotional, too logical, too rational. It is apparent you fall into that category.

Maybe that silly remark was more accurate than even I believed it would be. I'm okay with that. I'm now comfortable wading around in the boat buying world. I've learned enough, and from many different sources, that I feel confident entering into the whole process. There's still more to learn, but at least I no longer feel like I'm grasping at straws.

And that's a good thing.... For me.
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  #37  
Old 07-18-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
As for using Other People's Money. Yeah. It's a great idea. But it does not work when you are buying a depreciating asset that will not be used for generating revenue. In that case, as hellosailor said, it is the bank that is using YOUR money--not the other way around.
Don't forget the money you didn't use to buy the boat. If that's generating more in interest than you're paying for the loan... There's a lot of ways to look at the value of that money you didn't spend.
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  #38  
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
But the real point is that a very large percentage of boat buyers do not get loans. That means that while NADA and lenders may set the limit that a small percentage of buyers can pay, they do not, and cannot actually set the market price.

As for using Other People's Money. Yeah. It's a great idea. But it does not work when you are buying a depreciating asset that will not be used for generating revenue. In that case, as hellosailor said, it is the bank that is using YOUR money--not the other way around.
Can you point me to a source on the percertage of boat buyers who finance?

Regardless, pay cash vs finance can be debated into the ground. While returns on guaranteed investments are at life time lows right now there is still lost opportunity cost to be considered. Even an investment in 5% tax free bonds, along with the second home deduction can put a serious dent in the finance costs of a boat. Especially these days when the interest rates being charged on loans are also at all time lows.

Then there are other investment venues to be considered. Since the cash going into the boat is a guaranteed loser, from an investment POV, just about anything short of penny stocks would be less risk. From cashing in on the real estate downturn to keeping the money in the stock market there are a lot better uses for the cash than draining it on a boat. Seriously, an investment savy friend approaches you with the bonafide deal of a lifetime but go time is now. You tell him you can't because you just bought a boat. Hmm, yeah, that works!!!

So, even if you have the cash, plunking it all into a boat, maybe not the best option. At least something where all the possibilities have to be weighed.
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Last edited by TJC45; 07-18-2013 at 11:05 AM.
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  #39  
Old 07-18-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleheadMd View Post
Oh hey, all the advice you've been given here is just "folksy sayings and anecdotes". Ok, now you've had professional lenders and surveyors confirm what everyone here has been telling you. Feel better?
Bubble - I gotta say this is kind of funny coming from you. Remember back in the day when you became "chastened"?
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  #40  
Old 07-18-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Bubble - I gotta say this is kind of funny coming from you. Remember back in the day when you became "chastened"?
Are you implying that I disregarded advice given to me on this forum, and then showed up later, claiming the same knowledge as if it were brand-new?

"Chastened" was a sarcastic "tip 'o the hat" to SailingDog, SailAway and those folk who were condescending and insulting to all newb sailors who checked into the forum. Those guys had great advice...IF you could sort through their insults and vitriol to get to it. When you and others refused to kiss their behinds in exchange for that knowledge, they left.

I'm not disparaging Julie's sailing ability. In fact, I'm not disparaging her at all.
I'm just saying that she's been offered 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions here, ignored all of it, and now it's gospel because she's spent a weekend with brokers and surveyors.

I am merely voicing my opinion, that her level of caution approaches that of paralysis. Further, my opinion is that she's treating a boat purchase as if it were a car or a home, which I believe is a flawed premise. Several other people seem to agree with my opinion.

I even offered the suggestion of fractional ownership in a sailing club as a way of avoiding the financial "suck-hole" that a boat is.

Am I emotionally invested in her purchase? Nah.
I'm laughing. I'm laughing my a$$ off, because I've watched people chase their tails like this before, and in the end, accomplish nothing. No offense to Julie, but she's got 20+ years on me, and I'm not a young fellow.

I'm reminded of General George C. McClellan who meticulously planned himself into paralysis. Lincoln was forced to remove him from command, because he simply couldn't keep up with the pace of battle the Confederates placed upon him.

Haven't you ever met anyone for whom the "planning" was more exciting than the "doing"? I can think of another, very vocal forum member who fits this description to a "T". They're pretty quiet these days. I'll give you one guess who.

Hey, whatever. It's her time to waste, I'm just enjoying the show.
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