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  #51  
Old 07-19-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
I can't say a lot of how I think this will go because that would require me to put words in the broker's mouth. But, if I was the broker, I'd take the information we provided the broker to the owner and let the owner know he has buyers now who are serious but they know what's on the market and his boat is considerably overpriced. (We showed him comps and let him know we're aware of the costs of putting this boat on the same playing field as the others.) If the owner stands firm, then he'll have to wait for someone who buys solely on emotion and wants to pay cash.

There was a boat owner across the way who came over saying he wanted to move up. He was in and out in a few minutes. Probably because of all that he'd have to put into the boat if he wanted the same creature comforts he now has. Or maybe he just didn't like it. Or maybe it was too darn hot!

Taking in the condition of this boat, I didn't have any major issues, from what I could see from an in-water inspection. It's far from perfect but I never expected perfect. But it's ready to sail now (I think!), we'd just have to lug a few 50# blocks of ice to the boat or bring a cooler if we wanted cold drinks. And what sailor doesn't want cold drinks?

There are a few unanswered questions, like why was the shore power cord laid out, plugged into the dock, but not the boat? Is there a short somewhere? And I have to find the source of water stains on the upper cabin walls. Why so much oil in the bilge? And some other things on the list we made while there.

But the deck had virtually no crazing. The hull (above the waterline) looked in good shape. The rod rigging looked fine, as did the turnbuckles. But the hatches were failing and two were cracked. Fixed ports showed no evidence of leaking but the plexiglass was seriously crazed.

It wasn't the best day to thoroughly inspect a boat. It was 95 outside and about 110 inside, even after we opened all hatches and ports. I kept having to go up top to cool down and didn't do as thorough an inspection as I would have liked. I got plenty of pictures but still missed the stuffing box and a number of storage areas. I also didn't check to see if the boat had a freshwater pump. There was a number of other things I didn't check but it was so hot, spending any time below was torture.

We'll see how it goes. We're still planning on making the trip east. A friend of ours in CT is expecting us, regardless of if we find a boat locally or not. But if the buyer really wants to sell and recognizes what other boats are offering, he might feel a price adjustment is in order. I'd rather approach it that way than throw a number at him before he's nudged to seriously look at other E38s on the market and compares apples to apples, to whatever degree that's possible.
And then there are the two close to me. One 10 minutes the other 1/2 hour. If you like them and are enamored/ serious this is the model let me know if/ when you want me to do a quick look at them

Dave
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  #52  
Old 07-19-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

This is a good thread about what boats are worth, how to get a good deal etc. That's all useful stuff..and plenty of good advice.

We started cruising in 1987 and have gone through a succession of 5 different boats. Every one was what we thought was the right boat for us at the time.

But for us, somehow boat purchases are different than a house, a car, or other large purchase. Boats are fun. Boats are not sensible financially. We needed to fall in love with the boat. We needed to like the seller. When selling, we needed to like the buyer or we wouldn't want them to take possession of our boat! Years after selling a boat, I often get calls from the new owner asking a question about something. I like those calls.

Yea, the price needs to be fair, but since we need to like the seller, we aren't working on a win-lose deal. The end result, is we end up with lots of sailing friends.

So for what it's worth, you aren't buying a boat. You're buying a dream. Every aspect can be fun including buying and selling.

So our advice is find a fair deal on a good boat owned by good people who take pride in their boat.
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  #53  
Old 07-19-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
I can't say a lot of how I think this will go because that would require me to put words in the broker's mouth. But, if I was the broker, I'd take the information we provided the broker to the owner and let the owner know he has buyers now who are serious but they know what's on the market and his boat is considerably overpriced. (We showed him comps and let him know we're aware of the costs of putting this boat on the same playing field as the others.) If the owner stands firm, then he'll have to wait for someone who buys solely on emotion and wants to pay cash.

But if the buyer really wants to sell and recognizes what other boats are offering, he might feel a price adjustment is in order. I'd rather approach it that way than throw a number at him before he's nudged to seriously look at other E38s on the market and compares apples to apples, to whatever degree that's possible.
What you are suggesting is that the seller should negotiate against himself because the “serious buyer" says that his boat is priced too high even though the “serious buyer" is not ready to make an offer.

The broker should certainly get you the answers to your questions but the rest of it?

Who would do that?

It doesn’t cost you anything to make an offer of whatever amount you wish. With that offer the seller knows that if he signs it he has a deal. Your way is just a conversation. The seller has no way of knowing what your intentions are and he doesn’t know you.

Good luck.

Last edited by sailpower; 07-19-2013 at 04:50 PM.
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  #54  
Old 07-19-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

worth depends on your use of and for it--is it yur home--worth more than a toy is, but, then.....
value is what that boat will sell for on open market, which is still tanked--is also what you will pay for that boat you so want.
subjective . different to everyone. nada and surveyors are still keyed into the old market, where it wasnt so bad... good luck. try ebay and craigs list for alleged deals, but beware of scammers .....
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  #55  
Old 07-19-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

I am NO expert on rigging, only speaking on behalf of a good friend who has a C&C Landfall with Rod Rigging (RR), don't buy a boat with rod rigging if it could need replacement anytime soon. He has had a heck of a time finding someone who will even deal with RR in the Annapolis area. Just say'in, do some research on RR before you buy a boat with it. It last but much more costly.
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  #56  
Old 07-19-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

If you really like the boat, come up with your own value for the boat as if in the shape you'd like. Then list the deficiencies and cost per. Total and adjust original swag. Make an offer 15-20% below that.

Most brokers will push the seller to accept a reasonable offer. If negotiable they will counter. It also shows you're serious.

Just my 2cents
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  #57  
Old 07-19-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailpower View Post
What you are suggesting is that the seller should negotiate against himself because the “serious buyer" says that his boat is priced too high even though the “serious buyer" is not ready to make an offer.

The broker should certainly get you the answers to your questions but the rest of it?

Who would do that?

It doesn’t cost you anything to make an offer of whatever amount you wish. With that offer the seller knows that if he signs it he has a deal. Your way is just a conversation. The seller has no way of knowing what your intentions are and he doesn’t know you.

Good luck.
I realize it costs nothing to make an offer but would you make an offer on a boat that is priced $10K+ more than boats that, compared to this one, are loaded to the gills? It makes no sense to enter into a sales contract that is not only is listed $10K+ more but that would cost about another $10K to bring up to snuff with the other boats. Not when there's other boats you could buy and save that $20K.

What I was suggesting is since the broker almost certainly told the seller he was going to show the boat, and since the seller will most certainly ask the broker how it went, the broker might inform the seller his boat is overpriced, compared to what's on the market today. What the seller does from there is his business. It's not my job to show him the light.

If for some reason our trip east has us coming back empty handed, and the seller of the first E38 we looked at has adjusted his price, we might go back and make an offer. But we aren't going to enter into the offer phase on that boat when we still have many other boats we want to see, and all are better equipped.

It been said time and time again here, "Buy a boat that has everything you want on it, or as close to that as you can get, so you can enjoy sailing rather than pouring money into her and being stuck in the harbor fixing her up." That, to me, is excellent advice. I plan to keep my focus in that direction.

But as far as the E38-200, I really like the design, the layout and what I could glean about the build quality. The SO? Not sold like me. We'll be seeing other type boat.
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Old 07-19-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Julie-
"And we really like this broker and he agreed to represent us no matter who we buy from. " You're contracting with a buyer's broker?? Really? It isn't enough to know that you'll already be paying the seller's broker, you need to have two of them in the middle?

What chef said about rod rigging can be right, you can't just look at it to tell if it has aged, and it DOES age. You need a rigger, not a general surveyor, who can examine the rods ends up close and tell if they are distorted or cracked, and whether they can be reheaded. That can be hard to find, or easy, depending on whether NavTec is picking up the phone and telling you where the local dealer may be. Either way, all standing rigging ages and needs a competent inspection and replacement from time to time.
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Julie,

Just go buy a boat & have fun. Summer will be over before you know it & you like the rest of us aren't getting any younger

You've been around boats most of your life so you already know owning a boat is about the joy, pleasures & sometimes heart aches that money can't buy.

Money is just something you need in case you don't die today.
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Old 07-19-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
I realize it costs nothing to make an offer but would you make an offer on a boat that is priced $10K+ more than boats that, compared to this one, are loaded to the gills? It makes no sense to enter into a sales contract that is not only is listed $10K+ more but that would cost about another $10K to bring up to snuff with the other boats. Not when there's other boats you could buy and save that $20K...
Then why not place an offer on one of those other boats? That's a question you need to be prepared for, because when you make that argument, that's the question a seller or a good broker will ask. If the broker is sharp, he may be familiar with those other boats and know the answer to that question. Have you looked at those other boats? If they're so much better, then why are you wasting your time with this boat?

I don't buy the "loaded to the gills" thing, since on used boats most add-ons add little to the dollar value of the boat. If they have so much value to you, then you should buy the other boat instead. In fact, I'm a little puzzled that you are fixated on this one boat if there are sister ships that are so much better equipped and lower priced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
What I was suggesting is since the broker almost certainly told the seller he was going to show the boat, and since the seller will most certainly ask the broker how it went, the broker might inform the seller his boat is overpriced, compared to what's on the market today. What the seller does from there is his business. It's not my job to show him the light.
It's your job to show him the money, if you want to buy his boat.

I'm concerned that you are assuming that the seller is far more engaged in this process that he may really be. Do you really think he is hanging on every showing of his boat? He might, but some sellers just hand it over to the broker and head out of town, out of the country, etc. Many sellers are the heirs of the deceased owner, and have no connection to the boat other than some idea of how much money they want (and willing to wait to get their price). Some sellers don't really want to sell the boat (spouse making them do it, reluctant to admit their health is declining, etc.), and will continue to use and enjoy the boat until they get their price.

If the boat is overpriced, the broker has probably told the owner before you came along. If you come in with a list of reasons why the boat is a lousy value, he may not see a win-win opportunity.

I'm afraid your expectations are unreasonable if you actually expect him to lower his asking price before you even make an offer. Adjusting the asking price means forcing him to accept a lower offer from EVERYONE, not just you. That could be humiliating to him.

As I advised you before, you should stop being so hung up about asking price, do your homework to determine what the boat is worth to you, and offer that amount with an explanation to back up your valuation. That explanation should be based on boats that have already sold, though. If you use other boats currently on the market to justify your valuation, then the seller is just going to be confused at why you don't buy one of those other boats. Good brokers can tell when you're being serious, and when you're just playing games to lower the price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
...It been said time and time again here, "Buy a boat that has everything you want on it, or as close to that as you can get, so you can enjoy sailing rather than pouring money into her and being stuck in the harbor fixing her up."...
I think you're taking something out of context. A boat that's "loaded to the gills" is not necessarily in sail-away condition. A boat that has fewer accessories but is in sound condition could get you sailing now, and you can take your time adding things that are nice to have but not absolutely necessary.

I think you're confusing the two, and that can be dangerous. Just because you have to buy ice doesn't mean the boat will be stuck in the harbor for repairs. And just because a boat is "loaded to the gills" doesn't mean that it won't have a serious mechanical failure that could lay it up for a whole season. Just ask JimGo about that one.
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