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  #61  
Old 07-19-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor
I realize it costs nothing to make an offer but would you make an offer on a boat that is priced $10K+ more than boats that, compared to this one, are loaded to the gills? It makes no sense to enter into a sales contract that is not only is listed $10K+ more but that would cost about another $10K to bring up to snuff with the other boats. Not when there's other boats you could buy and save that $20K.
Sure I would. If I was sure about wanting that type of boat I would make the offer that was comfortable for me taking all into account. I have done it a few times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor
What I was suggesting is since the broker almost certainly told the seller he was going to show the boat, and since the seller will most certainly ask the broker how it went, the broker might inform the seller his boat is overpriced, compared to what's on the market today. What the seller does from there is his business. It's not my job to show him the light.
You’ll show him how to negotiate! Got it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor
If for some reason our trip east has us coming back empty handed, and the seller of the first E38 we looked at has adjusted his price, we might go back and make an offer. But we aren't going to enter into the offer phase on that boat when we still have many other boats we want to see, and all are better equipped.

It been said time and time again here, "Buy a boat that has everything you want on it, or as close to that as you can get, so you can enjoy sailing rather than pouring money into her and being stuck in the harbor fixing her up." That, to me, is excellent advice. I plan to keep my focus in that direction.

But as far as the E38-200, I really like the design, the layout and what I could glean about the build quality. The SO? Not sold like me. We'll be seeing other type boat.
That is all great. Course it’s the reason why the seller of the local boat wouldn't be taking you seriously at this point.

When you have looked around some more you might decide that a local fresh water boat that is located where you want to boat has some value at some price. Or you may not. This isn’t something that you have to decide right away. There will always be water. Get that spreadsheet out!
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  #62  
Old 07-19-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

At the risk of repeating myself.... No, I've already done that too many times. I guess you guys will have to trust that I'm capable of taking what I learn and applying it intelligently.

And while some will make an offer on a boat they have never seen, I'm not one of those people. Thus the planned trip east.

To all those who have a boat, what the heck are you doing here? Go enjoy it!
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  #63  
Old 07-19-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
I realize it costs nothing to make an offer but would you make an offer on a boat that is priced $10K+ more than boats that, compared to this one, are loaded to the gills? It makes no sense to enter into a sales contract that is not only is listed $10K+ more but that would cost about another $10K to bring up to snuff with the other boats. Not when there's other boats you could buy and save that $20K.

What I was suggesting is since the broker almost certainly told the seller he was going to show the boat, and since the seller will most certainly ask the broker how it went, the broker might inform the seller his boat is overpriced, compared to what's on the market today. What the seller does from there is his business. It's not my job to show him the light.

If for some reason our trip east has us coming back empty handed, and the seller of the first E38 we looked at has adjusted his price, we might go back and make an offer. But we aren't going to enter into the offer phase on that boat when we still have many other boats we want to see, and all are better equipped.

It been said time and time again here, "Buy a boat that has everything you want on it, or as close to that as you can get, so you can enjoy sailing rather than pouring money into her and being stuck in the harbor fixing her up." That, to me, is excellent advice. I plan to keep my focus in that direction.

But as far as the E38-200, I really like the design, the layout and what I could glean about the build quality. The SO? Not sold like me. We'll be seeing other type boat.
If you buy a boat out of area it will take weeks to get it torn down trucked and put back together. East coast trucking is not going to be cheap think 3500 to 4500. Rig tear down wrap another 1000. Unload restep launch 500 plus the plus being Chicago area rates??? So your east coast boats will be slower and cost half or more of your "savings".

Also it is your "job" to educate the sellers use the info you have on other boats time on the market ect. I have offered 30 to over 50% off asking and three said yes and went "under contract" as they call it. Two we decided against after a second look the third we bought over 50% off asking.
I rather put in stuff I want not what the PO wanted. Make a offer of what you think the boat is worth to you. All they can say is no. But you may be surprised.
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  #64  
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
At the risk of repeating myself.... No, I've already done that too many times. I guess you guys will have to trust that I'm capable of taking what I learn and applying it intelligently.

And while some will make an offer on a boat they have never seen, I'm not one of those people. Thus the planned trip east.

To all those who have a boat, what the heck are you doing here? Go enjoy it!
I was out sailing it. Well not my boat, my bosses boat I just steered the Sara.
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  #65  
Old 07-20-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

I think the price of boats is all over the place for a reason. The quality of a boat is based on the model, age updatedness and additions. I look at the boat type as like a neighborhood. If you live within a mile of the beach in Socal you will pay 750k for a shack, 3 million for a shack on the water, crack neighborhood houses may be 200k. In the right neighborhood you can buy a home for 300k and put 100k into it and walk away with a 500k home. You can buy a 20k boat and pour the same 100k into it and be happy to get 60k for it.

No one is going to buy a million dollar home in a crack neighborhood and the bank won't loan the money for that home. If a basic 40 year old cruiser has a radar, watermaker, new rigging, motor and sails it can realistically be worth 60k but the bank does not want to loan you that much for it.
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  #66  
Old 07-20-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Julie,

Here is the bottom line on buying a used boat....

CONDITION, CONDITION, CONDITION!!!!!!

Be willing to pay a premium for it and it will be the best money you ever spent.. I see people over focus on purchase price way to much when the real focus should be condition. No matter what the boat in the best condition IS ALWAYS the best value even if you pay a large premium for it..

Boats that sit on the market for long periods of time are usually there for one reason POOR CONDITION. Though sometimes owners just list them to satisfy a spouse and the asking price is reflective of that.

Boats that sit are not usually a value and wind up costing multiples more than a boat in tip to condition. Sometimes they sit because they are an odd-ball one off.

Boats maintained in tip top shape, or what I call "2 percenters", (the top 2% of boats) often sell in hours or days for top value but this is still a steal! I know this is tough to grasp but it is the truth. There are always buyers who know boats and only want that pristine well maintained immaculate vessel because they know it is a steal and tremendous value even at a solid premium.

I have a customer with cash trying to buy a boat right now and he has looked at over 60 boats, all JUNK. There is just too much poorly maintained junk on the market. He is willing to pay well over Soldboats.com avg because he knows that when he finds it, this boat it will represent a bargain over the same sister-ship that sells at the bottom or middle of the heap.

Tim R. sold hi beautiful Ericson with one mention of it being for sale on here on Sailnet in a forum post. This beautiful boat never even hit the market, he did not pay a broker and it sold quickly. He disclosed any issues and the boat was a true gem and a great value even if it sold at the high end of the range. Tim's replacement boat, a Caliber 40 LRC, was also purchased without it ever hitting the public market. It too is a 2 percenter.... Good boats move, bad boats sit.... Really good boats often never hit the brokerage market.

One customer went for the least expensive of his preferred model that he could find, a HUGE mistake that I see novice buyers make ALL THE TIME..

The one I tried to talk him into, same model, two years newer and it had a re-built engine, new sails, new canvas, re-wired, brand new electronics (three months old including radar), Espar heat, high output alternator, new interior cushions & foam, recent cockpit cushions, windlass, beautifully shiny gelcoat, new standing rigging and all bright work professionally stripped and re-finished. This done in preparation just for selling it. Boat was owned by a wealthy couple with a fat check book who used one of the best yards in the area. Deck hardware had also been recently re-bedded and it had bone dry decks.. The bottom had been fully stripped and barrier coated three years prior. You could eat out of the bilge. The price "premium" for all this was going to cost him 6K more upfront. Just 6K more..... Doh'......

He opted for the beater "value boat" at an agreed price of 28k and now has approx 75K into a boat that is still worth maybe 32-34k on a good day... Very, very, very poor decision. This is a net loss to him, over the other boat, of nearly 50k. His mistake was that he got caught up in the "purchase price" and refused to acknowledge the "value" the other boat represented and he "felt" the other sellers were just being greedy selling at the top of the market for that boat. They were not greedy at all they just knew what they had.. His boat is still not anywhere as nice as the one he did not buy and I doubt if it ever could or will be.

He kicks himself every day, especially the days I am billing him for to fix everything on his boat that was "deferred maintenance"... I also work for the guy who bought the good one, a seasoned sailor and a very smart buyer. He did not even dicker on price other than about $500.00. He knew what this boat represented and did not want to lose it. This 2 percenter was also a private sale and never hit the open market.. The boat has needed very, very little work. A few hundred dollars, that's it. He saved 6k only to spend an additional 50k +/-...........

My personal opinion is that bottom line price should never, ever be the #1 determining factor when buying a used sailboat though it very, very often is. When it is it almost ALWAYS cost more in the long run..

CONDITION, CONDITION, CONDITION!!!!!! Try to think and project out what will your total cost be three to four years from now. This type of thought process should always be a strong consideration.

Course in my professional opinion, please buy the beaters it keeps me working....
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  #67  
Old 07-20-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

IMHO,
Every boat is worth exactly ZERO. Unless someone wants wants to buy it. Then it is worth the agreed upon price of those PEOPLE. Without people, nothing has any (monetary) value. So lets consider people. Someone with a lifelong dream to buy a sailboat and go cruising and can now do just that because of money or work reasons, will pay more than someone with a passing interest. If that same person with the dream was diagnosed with an illness that will render them disabled in 5 years, they will now pay even more because of the time constraints. On the sell side, someone that put a great deal of love and work into a boat and is emotionally attached to it will likely believe that his boat is worth much more than compatible boats because it has been so well cared for and loved. On the flip side, a widow that just lost her husband because he fell overboard from the boat that she always hated because it made her seasick and cost too much to maintain, may sell it for 10% of it's NADA value because "I never want to see that d*mn boat again!"
In the end it's about the people on the buy side and the sell side and the motives that drive them.
How much is a certain boat worth to you and how long are you willing to search for it at your decided on price? Will you wait 20-30 years searching for the widow with an unwanted boat?

Best wishes to you in your search.
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  #68  
Old 07-20-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

I don't mind buying boats that need clean up and work. But huge BUT I'm going to pay way less for that boat. Like $75000 to $100000 off in our last boat. Plus i dont have a $100000 lol. I like the stuff I want to put on the boat not the "new" 3-7 year old stuff sellers call "new". Plus the boat we got hasn't been "improved" by a bunch of PO's. Not much electronics but not any butchered up wiring and holes either. Look for a dry interior and solid boat the rest is just bonus stuff if you like what's on it. Take what a reasonable person would offer then go lower. The season is getting short already, soon owners will be getting winter storage contracts in the mail. The market seems to still be slow but boats are moving. This is not broker BS but from the trucker who moved our boat. He's busy and so were the others I got quotes from.
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  #69  
Old 07-20-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
Unwanted boats are alligators eating someone's wallet. The bleeding doesn't stop until ownership changes hands.
That's the best 'folksy wisdom' I've yet read on Sailnet!
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  #70  
Old 07-20-2013
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Re: What Is A Boat Really Worth?

Maine - generally I agree with you. I followed this advice and focused on condition over price. However, you are absolutely right that it's extremely difficult as a new buyer to NOT focus on price over condition - thinking that initial $6K savings for a beater is worth it. It's just too tempting. What kept me focused was remembering the fact that I like to sail - I do not like to work on boats. Period.

However, in this market, you don't necessarily need to pay a premium for good condition. The pressure of SO many boats being on the market gives the buyer quite a bit of power. The problem is that many buyers won't even try to bring those premium prices down. I'm proof that it can be done.

So, a few of your statements I don't think are quite on. For example, this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Boats maintained in tip top shape, or what I call "2 percenters", (the top 2% of boats) often sell in hours or days for top value but this is still a steal! I know this is tough to grasp but it is the truth. There are always buyers who know boats and only want that pristine well maintained immaculate vessel because they know it is a steal and tremendous value even at a solid premium.

I have a customer with cash trying to buy a boat right now and he has looked at over 60 boats, all JUNK. There is just too much poorly maintained junk on the market. He is willing to pay well over Soldboats.com avg because he knows that when he finds it, this boat it will represent a bargain over the same sister-ship that sells at the bottom or middle of the heap.
I think as a buyer if you're immediately willing to "pay well over Soldboats.com avg" for a well-maintained boat, you're making a mistake. Again, in this market, you have WAY more leverage than that as a buyer. You should absolutely use it.

As I mentioned in the write up of my boat. NADA valued my very-well maintained and equipped H40 at $55K (without having the all the boat's actual equipment in that price). $55K was the asking price. Furthermore, there were other very well-maintained and equipped H40s on the market for $65K-$90K.

I ended up paying $42K for my boat. And it was virtually ready to sail away. Even so, I am choosing to put some significant work into it (e.g. - new standing rigging) to bring it up to my standards - but I used that and everything else I could possibly find for strength in negotiating.

So, let's say that those boats in the $65K-$90K range were in even better shape. Would an additional $23K-$48K been a "bargain"?

No.

All-in, I will likely have about $55K into my boat with the standing-rigging and other repairs and upgrades I'm making. This puts my boat's "value" right at the NADA value and still below the surveyor-appraised value.

This is precisely where I wanted to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
One customer went for the least expensive of his preferred model that he could find, a HUGE mistake that I see novice buyers make ALL THE TIME..

The one I tried to talk him into, same model, two years newer and it had a re-built engine, new sails, new canvas, re-wired, brand new electronics (three months old including radar), Espar heat, high output alternator, new interior cushions & foam, recent cockpit cushions, windlass, beautifully shiny gelcoat, new standing rigging and all bright work professionally stripped and re-finished. This done in preparation just for selling it. Boat was owned by a wealthy couple with a fat check book who used one of the best yards in the area. Deck hardware had also been recently re-bedded and it had bone dry decks.. The bottom had been fully stripped and barrier coated three years prior. You could eat out of the bilge. The price "premium" for all this was going to cost him 6K more upfront. Just 6K more..... Doh'......

He opted for the beater "value boat" at an agreed price of 28k and now has approx 75K into a boat that is still worth maybe 32-34k on a good day... Very, very, very poor decision. This is a net loss to him, over the other boat, of nearly 50k. His mistake was that he got caught up in the "purchase price" and refused to acknowledge the "value" the other boat represented and he "felt" the other sellers were just being greedy selling at the top of the market for that boat. They were not greedy at all they just knew what they had.. His boat is still not anywhere as nice as the one he did not buy and I doubt if it ever could or will be.
Your scenario works very well for boats that are typically passed around within a sailing community. As you say, people generally know each other and the boats and would rather do business that way. However, that's pretty rare for newer boat buyers.

We are not yet part of that kind of community - so we have to look around. Yachtworld was my addiction for 3 years. The key to doing well there is to set a strict budget, have that money ready, and WAIT. The right boat will come along, but it might take a couple of years.

As for the guy that paid $28K for a boat, then put in another $75K???? I'd say there was nothing smart about that purchase or the work he's done thereafter. That's insane. Unless that boat was ready for the chainsaw it's a stretch to think about how someone could dump that much money into an already floating boat.

What in the world took that much money? And why didn't he sue the surveyor?
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