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What Is A Boat Really Worth?

40K views 272 replies 53 participants last post by  Ajax_MD 
#1 ·
In our "continuing education" we've learned yet another valuable lesson. Owners and brokers have a very different idea of the value of a boat than lenders and surveyors. And in more cases than not, the latter has a value sometimes approaching 40% or more less than asking price.

We saw this but getting the information direct from the horse's mouth confirmed it. And with a little more hunting we've found selling prices are more in line with lender values.

If you're a cash buyer, you can pay anything you want for a boat. If you're a seller, you can ask anything you want for your boat. If you're a broker, you're hoping both the above will get together and complete the sale.

But once you get lenders and surveyors into the mix, things change and it's usually the seller who's not happy. At least that's what we're learning in conversations with lenders and surveyors we've had recently.

I suppose inflated asking prices are due in part because there is no system in place where brokers take known sale figures and advise the prospective seller what a good number would be if they want to sell their boat reasonably soon like they often do in real estate. Maybe that's why the average boat is on the market almost a year before it sells.

In a nut shell, what the lenders and surveyors have said is the value of a boat continues to decline as it ages until eventually it has no value to the lender. If a boat is valued at 25% its original asking price, the upgrades an owner does will be depreciated at pretty much the same amount. They could also have no value to the lender. So a $20K repower may only be worth $5K to the lender, even right after work is completed. On older boats it may have no value at all.

One lender said if the owner wants to pour money into improving the condition of their boat, that's fine, just don't believe it will automatically increase the value of your boat. At least not in the lender's eyes. They are only concerned with actual value in a given market, as in "If the borrower defaults, what price do we need to be at to sell the boat in a reasonable amount of time?" They don't get emotionally involved. It's strictly numbers and they know them well.

Surveyors may attach value to major upgrades but the overall value seems to be more in line with the lender's value estimates.

The more we learned, the more I realized the saying, "A boat is a hole in the water into which one throws money" is not just a saying. It's a fact. And that fact may be why so many boats fall into disrepair. The love is gone and there's no financial advantage to keeping the boat up. Just dump it as fast as you can.

When we started our search 6-8 weeks ago, I was gathering values from BoatUS and NADA for boats we were interested in. One boat was valued dramatically lower by NADA than BoatUS. I told the broker that. He said BoatUS had more realistic prices because they also do lending. It made sense so I started using BoatUS values to determine the real value of boats in the hunt.

Recent conversations with lenders proved just the opposite. All lenders we talked to said they use NADA prices to value boats. And the surveyors tended to agree with the lenders regarding boat value. Seldom did either agree with the seller value. Still, there are exceptions.

So who is right?

If you're obtaining a loan and you aren't willing or able to come up with a down payment that will bridge the gap between owner/broker perceived value and lender value, you have no other choice than to move on if the seller won't come down to lender value.

If you have the cash, you can pay whatever you want.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
I think soldboats.com is a more accurate source of realistic prices than Nada and Boat US.

If it is a relatively common boat, a yacht broker should be able to provide you with sales data from soldboats.com.

A boat is an unnecessary luxury item, if you cannot afford to pay cash for it, chances are that you cannot afford to own it, IMHO.

I am not saying that you should pay cash, just that you should be able to. It may make more financial sense to finance part of the purchase.
 
#17 ·
A boat is an unnecessary luxury item, if you cannot afford to pay cash for it, chances are that you cannot afford to own it, IMHO.

I am not saying that you should pay cash, just that you should be able to. It may make more financial sense to finance part of the purchase.
Booooo

I have not one regret in financing our boat! However, any and all upgrades are paid in cash, for example a re-power. There lies my disagreement with your opinion/comment ;)
 
#4 ·
welcome to big ticket purchases, via financing. It is really not any different than buying a house, collector car, vacation home, etc. and Cash is King, YOU make the decision.

NADA and Buc are useless for any boat purchase NOT on a trailer or unless you want a Bayliner.

Don't mess with a bank that does not have a marine lending department. They will shoe horn the boat purchase in to one of their existing "products". They could care less what you or a surveyor says the boat is worth. They need the boat in "their" book.

Banks are much more stringent now, than they were just a few years ago. ie 750 or higher FICO, ability to pay the note back, and a downpayment of at least 20%. They also are hesitant to lock in these fantastic (for the purchaser/buyer) low interest rates for 20-30 years, as they will go back up.

Cash IS king, but it should not encourage you to pay more for the boat than it is worth. Boats with great names (hinckley, swan, shannon, etc) may (and many have, even when adjusted for inflation) increase in value/worth, but the rest are "depreciating assets" no matter what you, the new buyer or the old buyer or the original owner have or will put in to it, to make it yours. That $20K of two year old electronics now has a ZERO value and is obsolete on its face.

A good independent surveyor will provide a "value"...usually based on replacement of the boat under survey, with something else or something similar, or a sliding depreciation value based on condition and what other boats have sold for recently and in his location.

Marine lenders will use soldboats, auctions, repo's and "real" numbers as well as loans they have taken back or modified or called to value your new baby, but they are willing to listen and discuss value...ie see above about name. That is, a 20 year old hinckley 42 for $100K will get their attention much more so than a boat like my 20 year old Hunter P42 at $100K. Condition will get their attention as well. They simply have to make the auditors/underwriters happy that should the boat come back, the loss will be mitigated by a bank sale.

The boat is only "worth" what a ready willing capable buyer will pay for your overpriced tub.
 
#5 ·
In our "continuing education" we've learned yet another valuable lesson. <snip>

The more we learned, the more I realized the saying, "A boat is a hole in the water into which one throws money" is not just a saying. It's a fact. And that fact may be why so many boats fall into disrepair. The love is gone and there's no financial advantage to keeping the boat up. Just dump it as fast as you can.

<Snip>
Oh hey, all the advice you've been given here is just "folksy sayings and anecdotes". Ok, now you've had professional lenders and surveyors confirm what everyone here has been telling you. Feel better?

You keep approaching this from a house/car viewpoint. You are trying to find a boat that a lender will finance, and that you think will retain it's value for resale, years later.

I'll reiterate what someone else has said in this thread: Society views boats as "toys". In the current economic environment, toys have little value, especially at-risk toys, like yachts, motorcycles and vintage automobiles. As such, lenders aren't enticed to lend large amounts of money for disposable items that have little value, and will have no value a few years down the road. A highly polished turd, is still a turd as far as a bank is concerned.

When the economy was flush, I bought and fixed up vintage automobiles and sold them for a profit when I was tired of them or when I accumulated too many. When the economy turned to crap, I took a beating on all the remaining toys I sold. I lost money.

I paid cash for a solid boat that didn't "need" anything (but I have lots of wants), with the understanding that it is virtually worthless to anyone but me.

It's a good thing I love her, because we'll be stuck with each other for a long time. :rolleyes:
 
#22 ·
Oh hey, all the advice you've been given here is just "folksy sayings and anecdotes". Ok, now you've had professional lenders and surveyors confirm what everyone here has been telling you. Feel better?

You keep approaching this from a house/car viewpoint. You are trying to find a boat that a lender will finance, and that you think will retain it's value for resale, years later.
Okay Bubble, let me explain this, again... Just so you don't get your shorts in a bind, again... And so you don't have to take your interpretation and try to make it fact, again... What I'm doing is sharing some information I've gained from talking to people who will ultimately affect the real life value of a given boat, especially if you need to get a loan. What anyone does with that knowledge is up to them. This is a forum. Sharing information is what forums are for. Are we clear?

But I have to ask... Why do you think all the advice you've been given here is just "folksy sayings and anecdotes"? I think you've discredited some of the members here who offer up useful information that helps a lot of people here.

You really need to apologize.
 
#6 ·
Hey,

It's the broker's JOB to know how the much the boat is worth! He should have access to selling prices on yachtworld, plus everything else. It doesn't do ANYONE any good to try and sell a boat that's worth 60K for 100K because that deal will never happen. The bank won't loan the money, the survey will show a value that's less, etc, etc. The owner will just get frustrated and should be looking for a new broker.

Of course there are bad brokers (too many IMHO) but there are also good brokers too.

I haven't been seriously looking for a boat for over 5 years but I have hard time believing that boats are all selling for 60% of asking price. I look at yachtworld all the time, and the boats I am interested in (C&C 110, Tartan 3500, Sabre 362, plus a few others) usually are listed for comparable prices and seem to take 6 months or so to sell. Some are listed for more and take longer I guess until the owner drops the price, but I have hard time believing that they are selling for 60%. I have offered 75-80% of asking price on a boat and been rejected.

My statements are based on relatively common production type boats. Of course, it's much harder / impossible to set prices on rare boats.

Barry
 
#7 · (Edited)
The boats are listed in the same price range because all the brokers are relying on the same pricing database.

IMO, most boats are priced way way too high. Many are advertised with improvments like new sails or motor, or with history's like Freshwater only. My personal favorite useless price inflator " Winning race history." Ok, unless the boat is coming with the winning skipper and he's going to buy me new sails every year I guess the boat is what it is, and that is just another boat.

Improvements may enhance a boat's sellabilty but few enhance it's value. Honestly i expect the boat to have an engine that works. Just like, if you buy my house, you expect the roof will not leak. That i just paid 15k to make sure of that, that's my problem. Though the new roof makes my house more attractive than one without a new roof, it doesn't increase its value.

Unwanted boats are alligators eating someone's wallet. The bleeding doesn't stop until ownership changes hands. Of course the sellers want to max out what they get for the boat when they sell. But the longer they hold on, the less they will net. These folks are at a disadvantage.

OTOH, your job as a buyer is to pay as little as possible. Listen to the surveyors, they know what these boats are really worth.

On the subject of surveyors, they are worth their weight in gold. However, just like the rest of us, they gotta eat. Surveyors who kill deals by giving honest value assessments tend to be very skinny. Honesty has a price. And that price is having none of the local brokers recommend your service. For that reason, if you can, it is smart to use an out of the area surveyor. Someone the local brokers can't hold sway over. He owes nothing to the locals and can give you an honest assessment without thinking about whether he's hurting his business.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I suppose inflated asking prices are due in part because there is no system in place where brokers take known sale figures and advise the prospective seller what a good number would be if they want to sell their boat reasonably soon like they often do in real estate.
There's more to it than that.

You simply cannot establish a value for boats the way that you can for houses. Boats have no "land value" that exists independent of the value of the structure. Boats move around. In real estate location is key, and it is very unusual to find a $6-million mansion next door to a $6,000 mobile home. In a marina, this is actually pretty common.

Of course, condition matters with a home, just like with a boat, but only a very small percentage of boats have someone living in them, compared to homes. And when no one is "home" for months at a time, the condition of a boat can go downhill very quickly.

Beyond that, every broker I've ever chatted with has stories about owners who simply refuse to believe what the real value of their boat is, and demand that it be listed at an unrealistic price.

So a $20K repower may only be worth $5K to the lender, even right after work is completed. On older boats it may have no value at all.
True, but this is actually one way in which boats and homes are somewhat similar. Spend $20k creating an elegant outdoor barbecue area, or putting in built-in shelves and converting a bedroom into a library, and it is almost certain that you will not add $20k to the sales price you can get for your home. What you will actually add will depend to a large extent on the features that other homes in your neighborhood have. The point being, that some upgrades add a lot of value, and some add almost nothing. Some sellers think they should be able to recoup the full value of everything they've done to the boat or the house, and they end up over-pricing as a result.

If you have the cash, you can pay whatever you want.
That's always been true, but the real point here is that a boat is a disposable luxury item that can depreciate to be worth less than zero. And I do mean that quite literally. There are boats out there that cannot be given away, because the cost of disposing of them is going to be greater than any scrap value that can be recovered from them. This almost NEVER happens with real estate. As mentioned above, the land almost ALWAYS retains some value, even if the home itself is good for nothing but tearing down. And the reality is that real estate usually goes up in value over time while a boat almost NEVER does.

Because of this, you simply cannot expect to buy a boat the way you do a home. It's easy to get a 90% loan on a home. You can even get zero-down loans on homes sometimes. Or an interest-only loan. Try getting any of those things on a boat!

Good luck finding what you want. Really. But if you approach boat-buying with the idea that it is a lot like buying a house or a car, you are in for a lot of surprises--most of them probably unpleasant.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Beyond that, every broker I've ever chatted with has stories about owners who simply refuse to believe what the real value of their boat is, and demand that it be listed at an unrealistic price.
Yep. And there is always a another broker that is willing to list at whatever unrealistic price the seller expects. Then it becomes a waiting game for the broker. Eventually the sellers expectation will align with reality (could take a year or two) and a sale occurs. Kashing for the broker. As long as the broker does not have a cash flow problem, this is not a big deal (well, a few more showings...).

A listing is money in the bank... sooner or later.
 
#10 ·
Buying a boat (or anything else) is a bit like participating in a buy me now/make offer eBay auction.

You can pay the BUY ME NOW price (what the seller wants).

Or you can try to get it at an OR MAKE OFFER price which likely reflects a low ball offer by the buyer.

And you can negotiate the MAKE OFFER price with the seller.

But in the end you will pay what the item IS WORTH TO YOU.

If an object's worth to you is based on its extrinsic value you need the details of a survey and resale insight.

Extrinsic value is what the bank worries about. If a borrower defaults they don't want to take a loss.

Banks don't give loans based on intrinsic value (how much you love the boat).

OTOH banks loan to people and if they think you are a good risk they will loan based on your ability to pay them and their evaluation as to whether you think it is important to repay them.

Years ago I bought a boat with a loan. Had a hard time finding a loan because it was a big loan for my economic status. I called a bank who had the slogan "Member of FDIC and the Human Race" in their Yellow Pages ad. A VP answered the phone and invited me down to talk to him and after a five minute discussion me he told me he would approve the loan. A lot of money at Carter-era interest rates but he knew I would repay based on the interview. And the boat was extrinsically worth it as well.

Thirty years later I still own that boat and extrinsically it is worth about what I paid for it (of course the dollar ain't what it used to be).
 
#12 · (Edited)
A boat is worth to you what you can borrow on it. Fair enough.

If you are the only buyer in the pool then you have also established the boats market value.

If there are other buyers or a seller wants to wait for other buyers then the market price to them will be different.

Suggesting that sellers are unrealistic because you are taking out a loan is, well, unrealistic.

A boat is not a house. You will lose money on it. It is the cost of the recreation.

Eventually you will either find a boat you want to afford or another activity that you can write about.
 
#13 ·
The problem with buying a used boat right now is that not many people want to accept the beating they have taken in the last five years or so due to the economy.

There are a lot of boats for sale at unrealistic prices. I bought my last boat in 2009 and I paid the owner about 60 per cent of what he had paid for it the year before.

I also had another 8 or 9 boats on my short list, several of which that are still for sale, with owners who just didn't believe a crashed economy meant their boat was worth less.

If you can afford to keep it, fine. I know I couldn't get what I paid for my boat if I sold it right now. I don't plan on selling it, so I don't care. But, those people wanting to sell boats right now, need to get real. Because, boats that belong to owners who are realistic as to what they are worth, are selling.
 
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#15 ·
Boating costs money.

On the averge for a 35 foot boat we spend 4500 a year for slip fees. If you haul in the winter add at least another 600 for that and storage. If you only spend 1500 a year on improvements , wax, fuel, parts you are up to 6600 dollars. We own Haleakula outright, but lets say you finance 50000 for 5% for 10 years your payments are 530/month or $6300 a year. So the cost per year is $12,000.

What will that boat be worth in 10 years. Well you've paid 63,000 and you'd be lucky to get 30,000 back. Remember this without spending money on improvements.

How many days a year do you use it? We use ours 30 weekends plus a 3 plus week vacation plus maybe another 10 days equalling 90 days. This is a lot compared to most. Pretty expensive for a hobby.

We all want 39 foot boats. We all want lots of room. What wil you sacrifice for that. Set you amount you can comfortably spend and look in tht range. It's a hole in the water money wise. Everyone says that....because its true.

You expectation of being able to sail this year is slowly closing. You live in Chicago not the Chesapeake. If this s a priority make it happen. If its a sidelight to a vacation or getting a road trip in is not the same as acutely pursuing it.

There are plenty of boats out there at reasonable prices. Time to get decisive and act.

Dave
 
#14 ·
Julie, I think banks go with NADA because it is free and easy to access. BoatUS requires you to submit a form. Soldboats requires you to be a member. If Yachtworld has sales information, that's only available to members as well. NADA is open. That does NOT mean NADA is inherently more accurate than BoatUS or others. That being said, when I was looking, NADA was a great first pass at what the boat would be worth when sold. If the seller was way out of line, I wouldn't usually bother trying to see the boat. If the asking price was within a range that was comfortable for me to make an offer based on NADA, then I'd go look at the boat. If that turned out OK, then I'd hit up BoatUS and base my offer on that, taking into account the features/gadgets/upgrades that had any value to me, and any that I might have to remove.

I believe your surveyor had it right - BoatUS's data is more accurate. I also found tha BoatUS's prices were typically lower than NADA.

I can't tell you how many sellers I talked to who said "I paid $X for the boat 6 years ago, and put $Y into her [which, in some cases, appeared to include the cost of winter storage!] so she's worth $(X+Y)." They don't seem to understand the market conditions. If it's a common boat (e.g., Catalina 25), it is only worth as much as the other, competing sellers are willing to take (not their asking price) for their boat. If you've got some shiny bell or whistle (or radar, chart plotter, etc.) that the other guy has, I might be willing to pay a little more if it's a "must have", but otherwise your boat is fungible. I know it stinks when you're the seller to have to deal in these terms, but its true. As a buyer, it's really tough to get sellers to understand this.
 
#21 ·
Julie, I think banks go with NADA because it is free and easy to access.
Having worked in the mortgage industry, I have some idea of how underwriting a loan works. My guess is that the only reason they use NADA is simply carry-over from the car loan industry.

NADA is well known and well respected as a source of useful, accurate information when it comes to underwriting car loans. The people who are responsible for underwriting boat loans desperately want something similar, which takes most of the guesswork (and therefore the risk) out of approving a loan. They don't actually have anything that is as accurate as NADA is for cars, so they grasp at the next best thing.

When it gets right down to it, it is a CYA sort of thing. If the loan goes bad, the underwriter hasn't put his neck on the chopping block. He can always say to his boss, "But we only loaned him the amount that NADA said the boat was worth!"
 
#16 ·
A boat is worth exactly what someone will pay for it. Not a penny more, or less.

Simple answer to a complex question.

Our Gemini we financed, surprisingly enough the bank covered 95% - including our upgrades which of course are worthless long before the loan has matured.

Our last boat we bought cash. It's worth what I paid, because that's what I paid.
Funny thing, the surveyor asked what I paid - and that's exactly what he said market value was on his report.
 
#19 · (Edited)
IMO, all the sales databases are inaccurate. There simply isn't enough turnover to set an accurate market. That, and are all sales reported?

If a common boat, a 1985 Catalina 30, sells for $30,000 does that set the market? What about condition, location, options like tall rig etc? And when will the nxt 1985 Catalina 30 sell? A week from now, month from now? Getting into the less common boats this is even more of a problem.

With regard to database pricing setting the market, cars sell by the thousands every week. The most accurate databases are Manheim and statistical firms like Galves. They are relying on thousands of units sold, so the pricing is very good. For example every week there could 500 2011 Honda Accord LXs going over the block. Even it's only 100 there is a meaningful sampling. That sampling is the range that sets the market, from best to worst condition. However, with boats, we are down to, at best, single digits of that exact model selling. Why would i pay a database price when there is no accurate centralized pricing system?
 
#24 ·
Shawn, that's OK I having a hard time following my own line of thinking at times. :confused:

In my world my boat's value should represent a minor portion of my overall net worth. That is because it is a depreciating, unnecessary luxury item (at least to me it is).

That is regardless of whether the boat is worth $10K, $100K or $1M.

If you have to borrow money to buy a boat, it indicates to me that the boats value may represent a significant portion of your net worth.

If you elect to to finance a boat, because it makes financial sense to do so, that is, to me, an entirely different kettle of fish.

Ok, that probably confused the issue even further, if possible. ;-)
 
#25 ·
Julie, even if a broker were a good and honest person, they'd have an easier time in the diplomatic corps than in brokerage. If either the buyer or the seller is not a perfectly rational person (and one can debate whether rational persons deal in boat at all) then the broker will insult and upset at least one of them by mentioning reality and what the boat is really worth.

And then of course there are the brokers who are in the business to make or steal money in one manner or another, not simply because they are trying to balance the karma of the bazaar. Or so I've been told.

Reality is a terribly fluid concept, even more so in small markets like boats.

The car buying books (NADA, red book, black book, etc.) vary just as badly, and in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to read them--because they ALL say there are other factors to apply--they're all dangerous tools.
 
#26 ·
I've said if you have the cash to buy a boat, you're free to spend as much as you want on the boat. If you get emotionally attached to a boat and feel the need to put more down (if you're borrowing) then do so. It's a free world. We all have a free will. It's a beautiful thing.

There's a concept called OPM - other people's money. Rather then taking cash out of the bank, use someone else's money. I use that in my investments. (I know, a boat isn't an investment, but I haven't bought one yet.:p) No way I'm paying cash. But that's just me.

FWIW, I never meant for this thread to be about me. No need to treat my post as such. I was just trying to share what I learned. That's all, really.
 
#27 ·
"There's a concept called OPM - other people's money. Rather then taking cash out of the bank, use someone else's money. I use that in my investments. "
EH, I'd say you've got that backwards, Julie. Unless you are literally stealing their money, when you borrow someone else's money, and presumably pay them back iwth interest, THEY are using YOUR money. You're not using their money.

If you borrowed the money from yourself, you'd keep the vigorish. Borrowing money only works if you can borrow for less than the return you get elsewhere, like taking out a 3.5% mortgage and putting a quarter million in the market at 10% instead. (Which for a while was very possible, not quite such a sure thing right now.)

In the 1970's, when a million-dollar robbery was a BIG one, the DOJ/FBI stats said that something like 90% of those big ones were never solved. They attributed this to professional planning. As opposed to the guys who said "Ah, I ain't got no beer money, let's go rob the 7-11."
 
#31 · (Edited)
I'm with Julie in that the banks set the market. Or, at least knows the true value of the boats on the market. They require a certain debt coverage and have to factor in recovery and remarketing costs. Still, if a major lender is only willing to cough up less than half the vessel's agreed upon selling price something is very wrong with that price.

I've said it once and i'll say it again, only in different terms - boat pricing is more hocus pocus than grounded in dependable market data. If 500 2011 Toyota Camry LE's go thru Manheim this week between $11,000 and $13,000 then that's the market every car dealer in the country can use to set prices. How many Pearson 303's gonna sell this week? Probably zero! Yet every boat broker in the country can tell you exactly what they are worth. How is it that they can do that?

The bank is, if nothing else, a good double check. Even if you have no intention of financing, it might not be a bad idea to see how much a bank would lend on your intended purchase.
 
#33 ·
Re: the original thread caption - exactly what someone is willing to pay for it.

Not exactly an original statement but it is the simple truth. Prior to 2008 people were willing to pay more - a lot more - than they are today.

As far as I know, Soldboats.com is the most accurate valuation system out there. I had bootleg access to it a few years ago and was astounded at what boats actually sold for compared to asking prices. Very frequently the sale prices were 1/2 or less of asking, not 10% & 20% less - 50% to 70% less - huge differences.

If your broker doesn't have access to it, get a new broker.
 
#46 ·
Sounds like you are on to something. if you really like the boat you saw, for now, look past the pricing, the older equipment and concentrate on the basic structure. New equipment and options like AC can always be added.

If the boat meets all your size and condition requirements then it's only a matter of price. If you've got a bead on what these boats are worth make the owner an offer. If you believe the boat is overpriced don't be afraid of insulting the guy with a realistic offer. Of course give yourself some room to move up. While it is his boat, it is your money.

It is unlikely that the perect boat will show up. Every boat you look at is going to have some warts. Whether they be the condition, the equipment or a price in outer space. If this boat gives you the warm fuzzies give the owner a try. You never know!!!
 
#47 ·
I've always found that Ericsons give me the warm fuzzies. They were very good boats and all of them are good looking. I'm particularly partial to the race oriented King designs - 34X, 37, 39 & 46.

I doubt you could go far wrong with a decent Ericson.
 
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#48 ·
Good show...a design and boat you liked. I would worry about the add ons as was said as you can do them yourself and then they are new...and state of the art. Concentrate on the realistic price of the boat and the items which were important.. Was it I good shape? How as t used previously? How many owners? Engine maintenance? Thats what really counts here not the add ons. Is it a fresh water boat? How many months a year was it sailed?

Make a fair price offer. Its easier to have the one close by than one far away.
 
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