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post #21 of 34 Old 08-16-2013
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Re: Bolt on Keel

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Originally Posted by paul323 View Post
...
(and yeah, less risk of the keel falling off - although the odds of this happening in a well-maintained boat are miniscule, so it has never worried me; but encapsulation makes the Admiral feel more confident!)

The downsides you articulated well.


From a design standpoint, what would have to be done to make an encapsulated keel better?

Glass over the top of the ballast? Create an impact zone of additional fiberglass at the leading edge? What else?

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post #22 of 34 Old 08-16-2013
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Re: Bolt on Keel

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Originally Posted by Tim R. View Post


From a design standpoint, what would have to be done to make an encapsulated keel better?

Glass over the top of the ballast? Create an impact zone of additional fiberglass at the leading edge? What else?
If I wanted to create an encapsulated keel that was as sturdy as a properly engineered bolt on keel, I would have cast ballast, keel bolts, as thick a membrane above the ballast as the keel area of the hull, and then have same system of tranverse and longituninal frames capable of distributing keel loads. The rule of thumb is that the glass in the keel area is approximately twice the thickness of the hull below the waterline. At that point the encapsulation becomes structurally irrelevant. The problem with that set up is that there is no way to change the keel bolts.

And...For what it is worth, unless you have a keel stepped mast, there should not be water in your bilge whether you have a bolt on keel or a encapsulated keel. With the exception of my Folkboat whose keel bolts could no longer be considered bolts before I replaced them, worst keel leaks that I have tried to repair was on boats with encapsulated keels where there was water in the encapsulation so that there was not good way to get a repair that did not have pin holes letting water in.

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post #23 of 34 Old 08-16-2013
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Re: Bolt on Keel

Can I assume you wear a belt and suspenders as well Jeff.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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post #24 of 34 Old 08-16-2013
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Re: Bolt on Keel

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Can I assume you wear a belt and suspenders as well Jeff.
Why do you ask? Actually, I also have my pants stitched to my shirt and both surgically attached to my body. They never fall down!

But seriously, in reality, if the membrane was heavy enough and there is adequate internal framing, you would not need the keel bolts as long as you never spend any time grinding on a rock ledge.

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post #25 of 34 Old 08-16-2013
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Re: Bolt on Keel

I have never seen an encapsulated keel that anyone would regard as "failed" or loose even with voids detectable on the sides.

Bolt ons on the other hand.......

I've had both styles, lead and iron fins, lead encapsulated and steel plates. I've mounted and remounted lead and iron fins. I've helped pour punchings into slurry in a moulded fin - you name it. I regard encapsulated as the most trouble and worry free. There is a bit of a performance loss due to the extra thickness but I can live with that - it would take a race course to detect the difference.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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post #26 of 34 Old 08-16-2013
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Re: Bolt on Keel

I remember a encapsulated keel that munched its prow on a rock. Looked like a small reglassing job until the grinder let all the sand run out. (Taiwan sand)
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post #27 of 34 Old 08-16-2013
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Re: Bolt on Keel

Just imagine what you'd have if that builder had bolted a keel on.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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post #28 of 34 Old 08-16-2013
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Re: Bolt on Keel

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
I have never seen an encapsulated keel that anyone would regard as "failed" or loose even with voids detectable on the sides.
You may never have seen a failed encapsulated keel but the ballast keel on my familiy's Vanguard ended up near the sea wall at Fort Totten and the rest of the Vanguard and its encapsulation envelope ended up at the bottom of the East River. When I worked at Direcktors a Cheoy Lee was brought in on a salvage barge with the bottom of its encapsulation keel sheered where he missed the entrance to Gvt cut. Most of the ballast was gone there too.

But I have also seen bolt on keels with bad keel bolts so I also know this is a matter of pick your poison.


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post #29 of 34 Old 09-17-2013 Thread Starter
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So a bolt on keel was designed originally as a money saving adventure? It's cheaper to build a boat with a bolt on keel than an encapsulated keel?

THIS OLD BOAT
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post #30 of 34 Old 09-18-2013
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Re: Bolt on Keel

Champ:
No. Other way around. Cheaper and easier to do an encapsulated keel. That's one reason almost all the boats out of Taiwan had encapsulated keels. When we did the Lafitte 44 I think that was the very first Taiwan production boat to have outside ballast.

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