Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft" - Page 5 - SailNet Community

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  #41  
Old 08-14-2013
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Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

I'm trying to post a new photo of the P30. New AWLGRIP, etc. but the limitation on upload is defeating me....any advice there?
Rob
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  #42  
Old 08-14-2013
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Re: Consider More than the boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrB View Post
Going up every 3 ft roughly doubles your ownership costs. So a 33 ft boat is 2X more costly to own than a 30ft boat. Storage fees, taxes, bottom paint, sails, moorage/dock fees are more expensive and recurring costs.
I am confused by this statement. Do others agree with it?

Storage fees where I am are by the foot, so going from 30 to 33 feet is a 10% increase. Same with moorage fees. If you have the yard paint the bottom, it is also by the foot. And if you do it yourself, adding 3 feet to a 30 foot boat doesn't double the amount of bottom paint you need. Nor does it double the cost of sails. What am I missing?
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  #43  
Old 08-14-2013
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Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Rob, I would not rule out the Sabre 34 MK1 ( centerboard) with 3'11" draft and a 50' air clearance it will take you just about anywhere you'd want to go on the East Coast.
It's a very traditional layout but quite comfortable for 3 people.
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  #44  
Old 08-14-2013
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Re: Consider More than the boat

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Originally Posted by DrB View Post
There's the boat purchase price and the cost of ownership price. Going up every 3 ft roughly doubles your ownership costs. So a 33 ft boat is 2X more costly to own than a 30ft boat. Storage fees, taxes, bottom paint, sails, moorage/dock fees are more expensive and recurring costs.

First question when looking for dockage for the night, winter storage, taxes, etc....."How Big is Your Boat?"
I could not disagree more. While the cost of boat ownership goes up as the boat's displacement increases, and to a lesser extent as a boat gets longer, In my experience the price of boat ownership does not even begin to double when you at 10-15% to the length of a boat. In reality, cost for sails, bottom painting, hardware, and so on are more directly related to displacement. Insurance is solely related to age and market value. Storage and dockage is somewhat dependent on length with marinas ever increasingly including bowsprits and davits in the length, but lengths are typically bracketed with the same price for a given bracket. But dockage is also a portion of owning a boat, maybe 20-30%, so increasing the length by 20% only adds perhaps 6% to owning a boat. It does not double the cost.

If there are significant factors which controls the cost of ownership, it is the condition of the boat when you bought her, the original build quality, original design quality, and your ability to do your own maintenence and keep the boat in solid condition during the period she is yours.

Buying a beat up boat means there will probably be a lot that needs replacement that you and the surveyor cannot see. Buying a boat with mediocre to poor build quality means that it will wear out sooner and could develop potentially major repair costs that a better built boat might avoid. Buying a boat that has been religiously maintained means there is less to replace and upgrade over time. Being able to do your own maintenance, and actually doing it religiously, is a reward unto itself, but also means a familiarity with the details of your boat so that things get repaired and maintained before they fail and lead to bigger problems and expenses.

Jeff
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  #45  
Old 08-14-2013
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Maybe not 2X

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
I could not disagree more. While the cost of boat ownership goes up as the boat's displacement increases, and to a lesser extent as a boat gets longer, In my experience the price of boat ownership does not even begin to double when you at 10-15% to the length of a boat. In reality, cost for sails, bottom painting, hardware, and so on are more directly related to displacement. Insurance is solely related to age and market value. Storage and dockage is somewhat dependent on length with marinas ever increasingly including bowsprits and davits in the length, but lengths are typically bracketed with the same price for a given bracket. But dockage is also a portion of owning a boat, maybe 20-30%, so increasing the length by 20% only adds perhaps 6% to owning a boat. It does not double the cost.

If there are significant factors which controls the cost of ownership, it is the condition of the boat when you bought her, the original build quality, original design quality, and your ability to do your own maintenence and keep the boat in solid condition during the period she is yours.

Buying a beat up boat means there will probably be a lot that needs replacement that you and the surveyor cannot see. Buying a boat with mediocre to poor build quality means that it will wear out sooner and could develop potentially major repair costs that a better built boat might avoid. Buying a boat that has been religiously maintained means there is less to replace and upgrade over time. Being able to do your own maintenance, and actually doing it religiously, is a reward unto itself, but also means a familiarity with the details of your boat so that things get repaired and maintained before they fail and lead to bigger problems and expenses.

Jeff
Up where I live, there are price changes over 30 ft. 30 and less, one cost, over 30 another, especially true with dockage and storage. For example it maybe $110 for 30' or less and $120 for boats over 30' for dock space, so your $3300 fee now becomes $3960 for 33" boat, which is more than 10%. Do that for winter storage and shrink wrap, etc. and it adds up.
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  #46  
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Re: Maybe not 2X

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrB View Post
Up where I live, there are price changes over 30 ft. 30 and less, one cost, over 30 another, especially true with dockage and storage. For example it maybe $110 for 30' or less and $120 for boats over 30' for dock space, so your $3300 fee now becomes $3960 for 33" boat, which is more than 10%. Do that for winter storage and shrink wrap, etc. and it adds up.
It sounds like we are pretty much in agreement, since that is pretty close to what I said, since dockage is roughly 20-30% of the cost of boat ownership and the price increase that you are showing is roughly a 20% increase in dock costs, then the operating expense increase is about 6% of the overall total operating expense. Not the end of the world if you increase your operating range and comfort level. And since most of the boats in this discussion are over 30 feet as marinas measure it these days, that 10% incremental for would apply to most of the boats being considered. But also for what its worth, some marinas increase the price per foot for big boats, some decrease it for bigger boats.

Jeff
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  #47  
Old 08-14-2013
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Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

I grew up in the Tidewater area. If you are sailing down there ... there are only a few marinas that can accommodate you ... In Little Creek or Metro Norfolk or Willoughby Spit ... You really won't need a shoal draft there because the inlets that are shallow are blocked by low bridges (such as Lynnhaven or Broad Bay).
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  #48  
Old 08-16-2013
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Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

David,
If we end up in Norfolk, I'll try to use the Amphib Base or Naval Shipyard Marina's on the Naval bases. Do you have any info on limitations for those? We did a house/area looksee about two months ago around the entire Tidewater area, if you do the clock face example, from Toana at 11 o'clock, to north Williamsburg (too crowded), Smithfield and west to south, to Nansemond, southern Chesapeake, to Moyock, NC, to around and below Pungo (very south VA Beach), to Poquoson, up to Gloucester, Hayes, over to Mobjack Bay.....need to be in "rural, suburban" but need good schools for the 4 year old to grow into....but the Peninsula (Williamsburg-south) is out...way too much traffic and people along I-64 corridor for me. Also looking at New Bern/Neuse River/Oriental, NC area.Rob
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  #49  
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Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

@Tempest:
I'm tracking quite a few of the Sabre 34 MkI's....the MkIIs are out of my price range at $50+ K......

@Jim McGee,
The MKII's are nice but same story, out of my price range I think. R
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  #50  
Old 08-16-2013
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Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

New sails every 10 years -- $3000 = $300/year
Bottom paint every 2 years -- $1200 (including labor and haul out) = $600/year
Engine maint per year -- $100
Running rigging every 10 years -- $1000 = $100/year
Total of these big ticket maint items: $1100/year
Moorage every year -- $4000/year

All highly rounded and in today's prices. I also left out plenty of maint costs, I just wanted to make a point.

For me moorage is the highest cost of boat ownership by far. It's also not linear in Seattle, a 30' slip is $323/mo ($10.76/foot) while a 34' slip is $395/mo ($11.61/foot). Another way to think of it is that those extra 4 feet cost $72/mo or almost $900/year. For that cost I can afford to charter a larger boat for the rare times that I'd want it. Slips here are priced by the slip length, not the boat length.

I don't think it is worth buying into "what if" scenarios for purchasing the boat. Buy the boat that meets your known needs for today and the next few years. If the "what if" scenario comes around and you have time to sail to Europe then you'll just upgrade at that point. The costs of keeping a "what if" boat around and in good shape until then will cost you a lot.

Sail prices are related to sail area, and sail area is related to displacement, so that one really does go up exponentially with length. Running rigging and standing rigging also do. A larger cruising boat will also likely have more systems to maintain, which will also increase the annual costs.
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