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Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

21K views 107 replies 19 participants last post by  Robcooper0767 
#1 · (Edited)
I have a P30 with 5' draft and sometimes that depth can get a bit dicey. Would love to have a Pearson 10M because I like the look and inside layout (head, with toilet and sink vs P30 and P32 layout.
Looking at:
1. P34 with Centerboard? Pros and cons? Can't do the 5'11 full keel. Is this just a P30 on steriods (especially wrt the interior?) (I like the aft head in the 33-2 for room and placement)
2. P33-2 with winged keel or Centerboard.....who's faster? Is hull cored or solid? I thought I read that some were solid, some cored....anyone have details, like year or hull numbers if they switched? Any concerns or problems with cored hulls on Pearsons.
3. C&C (yes, cored) with C/B, shoal, wing. Like the C&C above 30' - 33, 34, 35, 36, 38LF (big boat but no one says it's fast but PHRF is in the mid 130's......Hmmm, better than most I'm looking at). Which C&C's have shallower drafts? I'm going all over the web and it's making my head hurt.
4.Tartan (only Masthead sloops, don't want fractional. 3000 (would like larger), 33 and 34's are nice, 37's are wow!, but......
5.C34 and C36 wings, Centerboarders (I'm looking at so many boats, I think Catalina has centerboarders, maybe it's shoal)
6.Sabres, but price points are high, and, yes, very well built, but kind of old style interior (nicer P30 on steriods)...like the Sabre 34's, but the MkII's with the aft head are Way over my dollar value....but, they have MK1 CB's that are within reach ($).
King for a day would be the Pearson 10M - I just like it, beefy, accessible from wheel (main, traveller, jib/genoa winches......if it only had a different keel!!!!
Want to stay below 40k, would like 30's, would love 20's!
Bottom line: Like the Sparkman and Stephens "look". Sleek, fast looking, nice angles. Not so much on the square boats. But, with the Admiral and a 4 year old, need a good size cockpit, good creature comforts below, want some speed and fun....in other words, where is that PERFECT Boat???!!!laugher.gif
Understand: leaky window gaskets, stanchions that need rebedding, but what are horrible, stay away boats that have major issues, not just maintenance or, hey, they are 20-40 years old....what do we expect!!
Thanks
R
 
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#3 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Thanks, I'm considering the wing keel versions and the 34 and 36 are 5+, but no more than 5'7", so still a big maybe.....I think wings are 3"10 and 4'3 respectively on 34/36...just not sure of performance loss with WK vs Fin.
R
 
#4 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Unless you are a naval architect or professional racer, I don't know that there is an appreciable difference in performance between a wing and a fin. We have a fin. I think you should focus more on draft and which draft is better for where you want to boat.
 
#5 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Agree, but to note: Naval Shipbuilding with AEGIS Cruisers and Destroyers....28 years with Navy...not professional racer at all.
Draft is consideration, but I see so many on Chesapeake with fins (including my 5') that I wonder if I should change Marinas versus sacrifice fin and expand my boat horizons in the 31-36 range? It is a matter of Marina Cost (I have an unbelievable low cost, but noted low tide channel limitations). Thinking of relocating to New Bern or Tideweter VA area from Northern Ches in retirement....if the Admiral agrees (so maybe not!). Or, just change marinas and bite the annual cost bullet.......Less gunkholing with larger boat, deeper draft though. Seems strange that the overall move to wing didn't seem to happen.....is it because of insignificance on these size boats?
 
#6 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

I guess it comes down to personal choice. We have a 5'3" draft and it hasn't limited us. The only two places so far that might have been on my list of places to visit that we can't because of draft aren't causing us to regret the fin. Too many other places to go.

And if you have a dinghy, it kind of doesn't matter.
 
#7 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Donna...very good point about the dinghy (but another expense!!), since I'm on a 30 now, I didn't consider a small boat to get in to places if needed.. Since you're in RH, it's a bit deeper than up here in the North...but I like your logic.
Thanks
Rob
 
#8 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

... Since you're in RH, it's a bit deeper than up here in the North...Thanks
Rob
One reason (besides loving Rock Hall) why we aren't up north. :)

Dinghy is an added expense, yes, but less expensive than buying a new boat.
 
#9 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

I've got a C34 and a buddy has a C36, both with wings. The two boats have completely different layouts but the difference in size is small. Beam is only an inch difference and overall length is about 1' difference.
Some people prefer the aft head placement of the 34 where others prefer the forward head placement of the 36.
 
#10 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

4.Tartan (only Masthead sloops, don't want fractional.

. But, with the Admiral and a 4 year old, need a good size cockpit, good creature comforts below, want some speed and fun....
Thanks
R
I guess I need to ask, I you are sailing on the Chesapeake with a small crew and a four year old, and you want speed and fun, why are you ruling out fractional rigs?

Jeff
 
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#11 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Just like the Masthead look, purely aesthetics for me. Tartan 33 is fractional and has right keel depth and turn of speed, but I like the Tartan 33R looks better, but, of course, it has a 6+ foot draft.......
Might have to look at a few, even sail them, and maybe I can be a convert...not sure.
 
#12 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

@Chuck, I'm favoring the 36' only because the PHRF is 147 vice 159 for Wing and 12 pts lower for Fin.
But, I do like the Aft head on the 34 better.....
How do you like the performance of the Wing? I'd really like to get your in depth thoughts on that, and your buddies if possible. Any comparisons to fins would help too.
Thanks.
Rob
 
#13 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

@Chuck, I'm favoring the 36' only because the PHRF is 147 vice 159 for Wing and 12 pts lower for Fin.
But, I do like the Aft head on the 34 better.....
How do you like the performance of the Wing? I'd really like to get your in depth thoughts on that, and your buddies if possible. Any comparisons to fins would help too.
Thanks.
Rob
I talked to a lot of C30 owners before we bought our boat. Everybody said the same thing - unless you're racing you won't notice the difference between the fin and the wing.

You also won't notice the difference between a 147 rated boat and a 159 rated boat.

In the real world the performance of two boats rated that close, sailing side by side will have more to do with the condition of the sails, how the boat is loaded and the skills of the captain.

Find a boat with a layout you like, in good condition and go enjoy the bay with your family. :D
 
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#14 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

I cannot argue with your sense of what looks right to you, since we all have our own personal aesthetic sense and when it comes to buying a boat, what matters is what looks good to you. But in terms of ease of handling, once you try a fractional rig, you might learn to avert your eyes. ;)

The only trouble with the wing that I can see is that if you run aground, they are much harder to free. There was a time when this was a frequent topic around here. I spoke to a number of people with wing keel boats who also had owned conventional keels, as well as tow boat operators. While some wing keel operators ademantly denied that there was any problem freeing a wing keeled boat, the vast majority of wing keel owners and all of the tow boat operators that I spoke to said that wing keels are much harder to free when they run aground.

To me, here on the Chesapeake a wing keel is a deal breaker. If shoal draft is needed, and performance is even a remote priority either a shoal keel with a bulb or a shoal keel with a centerboard will generally outperform a wing keel, without the difficulty in freeing the boat in a grounding....

Jeff
 
#15 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

The only trouble with the wing that I can see is that if you run aground, they are much harder to free. There was a time when this was a frequent topic around here. I spoke to a number of people with wing keel boats who also had owned conventional keels, as well as tow boat operators. While some wing keel operators ademantly denied that there was any problem freeing a wing keeled boat, the vast majority of wing keel owners and all of the tow boat operators that I spoke to said that wing keels are much harder to free when they run aground.

Jeff
Jeff,
I've seen this sentiment on SailNet quite a few times, and almost always from Chesapeake Bay sailors.

Sailing Barnegat Bay, where bumping bottom is just part of sailing, I haven't had trouble getting off on the occasional soft grounding (we have a wing).

Did the folks you spoke with make a distinction between a mud and sand bottom? I would think mud would have a suction effect on your keel.

Jim
 
#16 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Chesapeake is a mix of mud and sand, but there was no discussion of bottom types.

In talking with the towboat operators, they unanimously concluded that it just took more force to free similar sized boats with wing keels and that various freeing strategies (fishtailing, bow downing, standing the boat up, or heeling it over) did not seem to work as well.

I had a similar response from some of the owners. There seemed to be a sense that their wing keels had been seriously planted and they were unable to free them when they might have been able to get out with a previous boat.
 
#18 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

I find that upwind performance matters a lot to me for cruising. I'd rather be sailing than motoring, and being able to point higher and go faster upwind is often the difference between sailing and motoring.

Based on my month long cruise in lower BC this last July I may be in the minority. We were often in short company of sailboats who actually used their sails, especially when going upwind. However we had fun "racing" the others who do like to sail.
 
#19 ·
Get the 10M

and blow away everyone of those boats. The thing (10M) is a tank yet goes like a scalded dog. My mooring neighbor has a Catalina 30. He leaves the mooring 5 minutes before we do under motor then starts sailing when he gets about 300 yards away. We leave our mooring under sail and catch him within 10-15 minutes.

Not many boats in it's size range, with it's roominess, and sailing characteristics going to touch it with re: performance. Often you'll have to go up in length/size or much newer design to touch her. For a boat that can be bought for around 15K well equipped, it's a real bargain if you want a fast, comfy, cruiser/racer.

The draft isn't really a factor. In the Chessy, unless your draft is <5 ft, your not really going to be gunk holeing anyway.
 
#20 ·
Re: Get the 10M

...My mooring neighbor has a Catalina 30. He leaves the mooring 5 minutes before we do under motor then starts sailing when he gets about 300 yards away. We leave our mooring under sail and catch him within 10-15 minutes....
*hmph* Fastest is not always the bestest.

:)
 
#23 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

I'm a performance guy. I feel the need for speed. But i also feel the need not to bump my head every time i go down below and have enough creature comforts to spend a week at a time. Figure of what is most important to you. trading seconds per mile for a more comfortable ride is a trade off well made.

Right now i too am looking for a Chessie boat. Cat 30 is on the list as is the Pearson 323. I figure they are fast enough. And, when i get the jonesin' for real speed on a sailboat i'll just take out the Hobie 16 or hitch a ride on my buddy's Hobie Tiger. Not many blow boats gonna touch either of them in the speed department.
 
#25 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

I'm a performance guy. I feel the need for speed. But i also feel the need not to bump my head every time i go down below and have enough creature comforts to spend a week at a time. Figure of what is most important to you. trading seconds per mile for a more comfortable ride is a trade off well made.

Right now i too am looking for a Chessie boat. Cat 30 is on the list as is the Pearson 323. I figure they are fast enough. And, when i get the jonesin' for real speed on a sailboat i'll just take out the Hobie 16 or hitch a ride on my buddy's Hobie Tiger. Not many blow boats gonna touch either of them in the speed department.
Catalina 30s are known for comfort, not performance nor speed. Definitely not speed. "Fast enough" for a performance and speed lover may leave you disappointed. Unless, of course, you're racing against another C30, in which case you can give yourself the illusion of flying.
 
#29 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

I "moved up" from a C&C 30 MKI to a C&C 30 MKII. Draft for the wing keel is 4' 10"

Space down below is bigger than most 30 footers, including the Catalina 30.

Aft cabin, walk through transom, aft head with room for a comfortable shower, six opening ports (not including the companionway and forward hatch), big lazarettes, propane locker and 6' 2"+ headroom throughout the cabin.

I think if you compared this boat with most other boats below 34' you would be amazed.

Did I mention it's pretty darn fast and easy to sail?
 
#36 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

I "moved up" from a C&C 30 MKI to a C&C 30 MKII. Draft for the wing keel is 4' 10"

Space down below is bigger than most 30 footers, including the Catalina 30.

Aft cabin, walk through transom, aft head with room for a comfortable shower, six opening ports (not including the companionway and forward hatch), big lazarettes, propane locker and 6' 2"+ headroom throughout the cabin.

I think if you compared this boat with most other boats below 34' you would be amazed.

Did I mention it's pretty darn fast and easy to sail?
Rob, never been aboard a C&C 30 MKII. Just looked at one online. Interesting boat.

One thing I should mention with the Catalina 30's is that the MKIII boats (after '95) are different in a lot of significant ways from the earlier boats. It's not just the open transom.
 
#30 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Spent much of today with 4 year old daughter as wharf/dock rats. Getting the wife to go boat shopping is like me trying to get her to go look at motorcycles with me.......uh, no.
Looked at C&C 34 MKI, MKII may be out of price range.
C&C 30 and Catalina 30 are probably too small, didn't get a great vibe on C&C 34 MKI, but didn't go inside, not sure if I've looked at the C&C 30 MKII, or the price.
DrB, I love the 10M but concerned over the "classic interior" and the draft... it's not out, but Jim's comment about roomier cockpit, open transom (not a must have), and the "L" shaped settee that gives us plenty of room to stretch out and comfortable corners to curl up with a book or watch TV may be a key for family. The interior of the 10M with the parallel bench seats, or even say an older Sabre 34 with same setup, like my P30, may not be what we end up with.....jury is still out.
Now, I did see a Tartan 37 right across from the C&C 34......wow, muscular, nice looking boat, interested in seeing one inside, any leads for Western Chesapeake (northern) area?
While some say Catalina is the Chevy of boats (don't anyone be insulted, but we've all heard it one way or the other), I'm considering the C34, 36 (Wing versions), and now, the C38 Shoal Draft (Sparkman and Stevens design....love it!) - the C38 has a great PHRF at 123 and the C34 and C36 respectable 140's to high 150's. If I can find a C38 with shoal that I can afford.......Are the 34's and 36's ok for the Bahamas run (not far, but Ocean none the less..
The Tartan 37 and Pearson 34, 33-2, 36-2 with CBs, and the Pearson 37 with Wing keel work for me.....have to do interior considerations and still wonder if CB's will clunk at anchor or dock when trying to sleep (these are quality boats, hope it wouldn't be noisy, anyone know?)
Saw Beneteau's, Hunters and other Fractional's, sorry, still not in the running.....like the Mastheads.
What I did figure out, by seeing and with all your comments so far, is that I saw a beautiful Ericson Racer/Cruiser today (probably 34-36 ft) next to the Tartan 37. It was sleek, looked and I was told, was fast, and comfortable below. Problem was it had more winches on the cabin top, and the Tartan looked plain/simple with much less "equipment". Many of you have said, stop worrying about PHRF/speed.....here's the thing: I know that I want a challenging/"faster" boat, not a bobber. But, since I will probably be singlehanding it, as my wife has 99.9% of her eyes on Juliana when we're sailing, and when I do get to "beer can race" someday, I'll need to do most of the work....many winches, adjustments, equipment just isn't in the cards. I'm not a "racer" and don't plan to do it professionally at 54 years of age!
Dollars and Draft: family friendly cockpit and interior, fast enough for my enjoyment......I'm narrowing the field, but seem to keep dreaming about boats that may be out of reach, dollar-wise. But, offers never hurt anyone in a buyers market.
Keep those inputs coming, if you know of some of these that an owner would be gracious enough to let me on board and "feel it", preferably not too far from home, please respond or PM me.
And keep it going, you all are really helping.
Thanks
Rob
 
#31 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

BTW, maybe found a Tartan 37 in Texas, near Houston if all this pans out. Comments/recommendations on Salt water boats? I know Great Lake and Texas lake boats seem to bring a premium for "fresh water", but, hey, it's a boat, right? (or am I just showing my ignorance of: "dummy, it's an old boat you're looking at, and salt water is not a good mix with old boats!").
Also, the boats I'm starting to mention (the bigger ones) will be erased quickly if I only have $20-25k to put in....
 
#34 ·
Consider More than the boat

There's the boat purchase price and the cost of ownership price. Going up every 3 ft roughly doubles your ownership costs. So a 33 ft boat is 2X more costly to own than a 30ft boat. Storage fees, taxes, bottom paint, sails, moorage/dock fees are more expensive and recurring costs.

So before you go out and buy a 34-37' boat because you can get it a "great price" and you envision needing all the room, gadgets, phrf performance, etc. , figure out what the annual cost of ownership will be. First question when looking for dockage for the night, winter storage, taxes, etc....."How Big is Your Boat?"
 
#42 ·
Re: Consider More than the boat

Going up every 3 ft roughly doubles your ownership costs. So a 33 ft boat is 2X more costly to own than a 30ft boat. Storage fees, taxes, bottom paint, sails, moorage/dock fees are more expensive and recurring costs.
I am confused by this statement. Do others agree with it?

Storage fees where I am are by the foot, so going from 30 to 33 feet is a 10% increase. Same with moorage fees. If you have the yard paint the bottom, it is also by the foot. And if you do it yourself, adding 3 feet to a 30 foot boat doesn't double the amount of bottom paint you need. Nor does it double the cost of sails. What am I missing?
 
#35 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Rob,

You started out this thread by implying that you want a different boat because the draft of your current boat concerned you in your current location. Later you've moved to getting a different boat so that you can sail to the Bahamas. And increased the boat size. It's kinda like trying to help a moving target. :)
 
#37 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

Something that I always look at on boats is access to the engine, plumbing, electrical and seacocks since I do all my own work.

All boats are a bear to work on, but some are MUCH harder than others. A boat with an inaccessible engine would get crossed off my list no matter what its other virtues.
 
#38 ·
Re: Tartan(s), Sabre, Pearson(s), C&C(s), Catalina(s) - "Chesapeake Draft"

@Donna,
This thread has helped me think of many new considerations. Draft is a primary issue, but so is livability and do I want to get that boat that doesn't have to be a "trade-up" later - and as we have more free time (whatever that is!) and can go further, is it capable of transiting to Bahamas, something I'd like to do someday.
@DrB,
That exact thought crossed my mind last night as I "laid me down to sleep" :)
Cost - operating, et.al. is an ongoing issue.....I was thinking about slip fees, and the over 35' seems the magic number for a much larger yearly bill, winter storage too........gotta ponder that one! May want to keep below (still like that Tartan 37 though!).
@Jim
C&C's are nice, need to get aboard a few sizes and look. The C30 MKII looks real nice and has nice appointments. I think they are "too new", too much $ from what I've found on yachtworld and sailboatlistings.com to name a few.
Also, "right on" with work/access.......my P30 requires a contortionist to check the darn oil........do-able, but a bit harder at my age (54) and will only get tougher as I "age gracefully"

Back to Donna: I'm laughing a bit at myself.....I have had tangential thoughts pinging around in this thread.......so much to consider when choosing a "new" boat if this comes to pass. Based on my P30 and the likes/dislikes, and how long it took me to narrow that one down, the runoff ended with CAL30 and Pearson30, I now have a better feel on what the wife likes, and for this to be a family hobby, need to consider that so it stays a good thing for the whole family to enjoy, not just me.
Cheers,
Rob
 
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