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-   -   Kaufman 47 cutter, anyone have anything on these boats? (http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/105290-kaufman-47-cutter-anyone-have-anything-these-boats.html)

BoatyardBoy 11-03-2013 05:19 PM

Kaufman 47 cutter, anyone have anything on these boats?
 
I'm currently looking at a Kaufman 47 and was wondering if anyone had any information on them. There is limited knowledge on them on the Internet and from forums. I know they are similar to Swan 47s and has the same shape or appears to me as the Skye 51. We own a marina in New Orleans, and had a Skye 51 up earlier this summer. Very solid boats and nicely designed. But if anyone could shed any info or sailing experience on one that would be much appreciated.

-sent from sea via corked bottle

BoatyardBoy 11-07-2013 11:47 AM

Re: Kaufman 47 cutter, anyone have anything on these boats?
 
Any takers?

Jeff_H 11-07-2013 02:42 PM

Re: Kaufman 47 cutter, anyone have anything on these boats?
 
I believe that the Kaufman 47 was designed by Mike Kaufman. Mike is an Annapolis area (actually Severna Park) based naval architect and marine engineer who was formerly a partner in Kaufman and Ladd. People often confuse him with fellow yacht designer Scott Kaufman who is formerly of S&S if I remember right. The confusion is so rampant that even SailBoat Data has most of Mike Kaufman's boats ascribed to Scott Kaufman.

In any event, my first suggestion is to contact Mike Kaufman directly and see what light he can shed.

I personally have little or no first hand experience with the Kaufman 47. I have seen a CT47 which I believe was a similar design. I believe that the Skye 51 was a Kaufman and Ladd design. There are definite similarlities between these three. This is also a similar design to the K&L Nimbus 42 as well.

From everything that I ever heard about the Nimbus and Skye, these were both really nice boats. They were reportedly comfortable and fast for their day, robustly constructed. Looking back from 2013, I personally am not a fan of their rig proportions, but these purposeful adaptaions of IOR 2 hull forms and rigs was leading edge stuff back then.

In many ways these designs were very typical of performance cruisers of their era. Their underbody is not all that different than something like a Valiant 40 of a slightly earlier era. (Perhaps Bob Perry might weigh in here since he was having boats built in Taiwan in that era and there were few secrets in the Taiwan yards during that period.)

You occasionally see suggestions that these were Swan knock offs, but knowing both Mike Kaufman and Rob Ladd, both are creative designers and it would seem unlikely that they would be directly cribbing anyone.

I am sorry that I cannot be more helpful.

Respectfully,
Jeff

ctl411 11-07-2013 02:53 PM

Re: Kaufman 47 cutter, anyone have anything on these boats?
 
I have been aboard two of the ct47's one cutter one a ketch. These had teak decks the cutter had been removed and the boat gone through. The ketch had not and was is rotting away. If the boat you are looking at had/has teak decks beware. I liked the ketch layout inside but it was a total rebuild project. I couldn't find much info on them either. What's the name of the boat I may have been on it. You can pm me if you wish.

Faster 11-07-2013 03:10 PM

Re: Kaufman 47 cutter, anyone have anything on these boats?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff_H (Post 1116228)
.....
You occasionally see suggestions that these were Swan knock offs, but knowing both Mike Kaufman and Rob Ladd, both are creative designers and it would seem unlikely that they would be directly cribbing anyone. .

Jeff, I think those statements come more from the 'look' and probably nothing beyond that.. the deck plans and colour striping, along with the typical teak decks DID/DOES look very 'swanny' of that era. I'm pretty sure it was deliberate on the builder's part.. but like you say, the design was more likely K&L's (or K's) take on the ideal of that period...

bobperry 11-07-2013 03:12 PM

Re: Kaufman 47 cutter, anyone have anything on these boats?
 
" cribbing"?

I don't think so. To their credit Swans pretty much became a generic style. My own Golden Wave 42 built by Cheoy Lee is what I would call a Swan style design.

I knew the builders of both the Skye and the CT models. As I recall Mao Ta built the Skye. I could be wrong. Never much liked that guy. He did some funny business with me on a boat that has my name on it but is not my design. I didn't laugh.

I have a buddy who owned a CT K&L ketch for many years. He loved that boat. His had a custom lead keel.

BoatyardBoy 11-07-2013 06:54 PM

Re: Kaufman 47 cutter, anyone have anything on these boats?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff_H (Post 1116228)
In any event, my first suggestion is to contact Mike Kaufman directly and see what light he can shed.

From everything that I ever heard about the Nimbus and Skye, these were both really nice boats. They were reportedly comfortable and fast for their day, robustly constructed. Looking back from 2013, I personally am not a fan of their rig proportions, but these purposeful adaptaions of IOR 2 hull forms and rigs was leading edge stuff back then.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff, I'll try to get in touch with him. I was in Annapolis last month before I went to work offshore. My truck is still in Cape Cod though so I may stop there again on the way down if I can get in touch with him.

What is it you don't care for in the proportions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctl411 (Post 1116235)
If the boat you are looking at had/has teak decks beware. I liked the ketch layout inside but it was a total rebuild project. I couldn't find much info on them either. What's the name of the boat I may have been on it. You can pm me if you wish.

Yea, it has teak decks but they "appear" to be in good shape from pictures. I already bought tickets to go see the boat in person when I get off the ship next month. It's Serendipity located in Brisbane, CA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobperry (Post 1116241)
I knew the builders of both the Skye and the CT models. As I recall Mao Ta built the Skye. I could be wrong. Never much liked that guy. He did some funny business with me on a boat that has my name on it but is not my design. I didn't laugh.

I have a buddy who owned a CT K&L ketch for many years. He loved that boat. His had a custom lead keel.

It could very well be wrong Bob, but the listing says Kha Shing Ent. Co. as the builder. You say your buddy had a custom lead keel? Was that something he personally added on later, because as far as I know these boats have iron keels. Not sure about the Skye and CT.


Ronnie

Jeff_H 11-07-2013 07:09 PM

Re: Kaufman 47 cutter, anyone have anything on these boats?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BoatyardBoy (Post 1116344)
What is it you don't care for in the proportions?

Ronnie

I know that there are a lot of folks who like cutter and therefore some of this is my own personal prejudice deriving from the way that I sail which is I mostly sail short-handed, and tend to push my boats pretty hard. As a result, I like boats which are easy to handle and which can quickly adapt to the full range of changing conditions.

Boats like these had very large foretriangles and comparatively small mainsails. That rig proportion meant carrying very large genoas and chutes in order to get decent light air performance. Big genoas cannot be depowered the way a mainsail can and since you can only furl them down so far before the shape gets ugly, you end up needing to do more frequent sail changes and carry a larger sail inventory. Having to drag a big genoa across the jib stay only makes this matter worse.

Jeff

BoatyardBoy 11-07-2013 07:42 PM

Re: Kaufman 47 cutter, anyone have anything on these boats?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff_H (Post 1116358)
I know that there are a lot of folks who like cutter and therefore some of this is my own personal prejudice deriving from the way that I sail which is I mostly sail short-handed, and tend to push my boats pretty hard. As a result, I like boats which are easy to handle and which can quickly adapt to the full range of changing conditions.

Boats like these had very large foretriangles and comparatively small mainsails. That rig proportion meant carrying very large genoas and chutes in order to get decent light air performance. Big genoas cannot be depowered the way a mainsail can and since you can only furl them down so far before the shape gets ugly, you end up needing to do more frequent sail changes and carry a larger sail inventory. Having to drag a big genoa across the jib stay only makes this matter worse.

Jeff

Oh I see what your saying. Doesn't the use of a cutter with the inner jib make it easier to power your head sails down since your headsail area is somewhat divided into 2 sails? Also, would a bigger main/more roach with smaller genoa help even out these proportions? Or maybe just a smarter/smaller cut genoa jib combo?

I have only raced on a CNC 34 with hank on jibs. Never used a roller furling before. Would you say this cutter rig is more for cruising or does it fit its racer/cruiser title?

-sent from sea via corked bottle

bobperry 11-07-2013 07:52 PM

Re: Kaufman 47 cutter, anyone have anything on these boats?
 
Boy:
Yep I could be wrong. I pay mariginal attention to other people's design efforts. Unless they are noteworthy.

This lead keel was built and installed at the yard. How do I know that? I hung out in Taiwan quite a bit. Truth is I loved it there. I did not bite my fingernails when I was in Taiwan.

I pulled into the Ta Chaio yard after a nice lunch and ther was a bit of a commotion going on. It involved the lead keel they were pouring for my buddies boat. It seems the wood mould they had constructed for the lead keel had broken during the pour and lead had spilled out all over the parking lot. Big loss of face for the yard. Face is not a joke with the Chinese. I knew enough to wonder off to the CT65 plug project that I was involved with at the time. I had been around keel pours before. They are challenging.


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