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  #11  
Old 12-12-2004
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RegBates is on a distinguished road
SAGA YACHTS

I saw the 409 here at the fall show and was quite taken with it. the design is superb. I made inquiries about the yard and had my attorney do a little due dilligence. Saga it seems is a house of cards. The yard is in hawk up to it''s eyeballs, with much owing to it''s own lawyers who sometimes charge them 15% interest. The salesman was complaining that boats were''nt moving on the floor. Darryl said the 48 on the floor has been there over a year when it should have taken 13 - 14 weeks. The other boats are sitting on the floor with no cash available to finish them. The brave few who have ordered new 409''s will see the old boats now go out the door with the help of the cash from their deposits and after they have paid for their boats will have to wait for new deposits so that money can be used to finish their boats. Sound like the dying days of a boatyard. The crew has been kept on for appearances but two months of wages with no production can never be recovered. The boat at the show it turns out actually belongs to the owner Allan Poole who is keeping it out of the country. Poole has already blown off a bank, many suppliers and a few "partners" in the first Saga bankruptcy years ago.

Buyer beware!
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  #12  
Old 12-17-2004
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Bluesmoods is on a distinguished road
SAGA YACHTS

F/Y/I

Reg, I wonder what prompted your need to publish this obituary of Saga
Marine on the web?

I will assume that your motives were to genuinely warn someone and not to spread half truths with the intent of damaging
a small struggling (as are many small boat
builders in these hard times) boat builder like Saga.

I would like to give a professionals view of your info. First off, though recently retired, I spent 7 years representing Saga
as one of my lines. I have also represented
Catalina, Tartan, Jeanneau and Bavaria. Being in the industry I have spent time and am familiar with a good number of other large and small sailboat builders
and their operating methods. Allan and I have certainly had our differences during my time representing him but I have also seen the effort he and his crew expends to deliver a quality product.

Having purchased a 43 in 2000 and put over 11,000 miles on it, most offshore, I feel qualified to attest to the quality of that product. Relative to his former financial difficulty that resulted in a
restructuring I would only ask you to examine the difficulties of
starting a boat building operation from scratch and evaulating the
risk involved.

If you go back a few extra years you will find that both Tartan and Sabre have similar problems in their background. Thatshouldn''t take away from their current ability to provide a quality product at a fair price. Relative to Allan owning hull #1 of the 409, I know for a fact he has
been desiring to own one of his fine products for a long time. He didn''t keep that fact secret at the shows. He was proud of his ownership as well he should be. What better faith has someone in his
product than to put his family aboard and travel portions of the Atlantic Ocean?

Relative to his keeping the crew on for appearances I don''t think that ludicrous comment is worthy of a response.

If you check the December issue of Sail magazine you will see mention of a friend and customer of mine being first to finish in the ARC Europe rally from Bermuda to the Azores in his Saga 43. These are fast
well built cruising boats that Allan and company are building. I have yet to talk to an Owner of one of the almost 70 boats Saga has produced who felt he hadn''t gotten true value in the vessel he purchased.
On the other hand I do feel that any person
plunking large amounts of money down on any boat should protect themselves as best they can from any unforeseen circumstances. Having said that, it would be a shame if
someone was to take your statment literally and deny themselves the
satisfaction of sailing their Saga past its
competitors. Wishing you good luck in your in your boating selection.

Keith Reynolds, S/V CAMELOT
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  #13  
Old 12-17-2004
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Bluesmoods is on a distinguished road
SAGA YACHTS

F/Y/I/ (From Saga Mail list... )

Dear Reg,

I''m glad you liked our new Saga 409, but am appalled by the blatant attempt of this email to do Saga Marine harm.

I have built up the company over the last ten years, and provide a high
quality boat that has brought many people great pleasure. This email of
yours seems deliberately organized to defame the company and hurt
everyone here at Saga.

It misquotes employees who have nothing to gain or loose, and the entire content is misleading. Generally, it is competing brokers who make statements like this, to
steer prospective Saga customers into the products they represent. It does appear that Saga''s new product is so well received in the marketplace that it is threatening other boat companies and their brokers.

Over the last two years many industries, not only boat builders, have suffered because of the failing U.S. economy. Whereas we have had a difficult two years, we have managed to bring out two brand new
excellent products, both of which have been
recognized by our peers. Anyone wishing to buy one of our new products can do so and keep their money entirely safe. Anyone having any concerns can speak to me
personally.

The reference made to the first Saga bankruptcy is a cheap shot. This
was a reorganization of the company in agreement with the bank, the suppliers, and the partners, and was reported in "Practical Sailor"
magazine.

With regard to our current financing, do
you think our lawyers would be lending us money if they thought they were at risk?
The yard is not "in hawk up to its eyeballs" as you suggest.

As far as my owning a Saga product, I have not hidden this fact. My wife and I own Saga 409 Hull#1.

We bought it from the company, and it''s
quite common practice for a boat company owner to sail their own boat.

With the short summers and limited sailing in Lake Ontario, as well as the tax advantages of sailing out of country, we made the decision to take our boat down South. The boat has sailed over 2000 miles since leaving the factory in September, attending the two east coast boat shows, and it will be on display at the Miami "Strictly Sail" Boat Show in February.

Once again, I would like to reiterate that we at Saga build fine yachts and our customers'' money is secure. We have a great reputation with our
customers.

Sincerely,

Allan Poole
President
SAGA MARINE
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  #14  
Old 01-12-2005
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tonys1 is on a distinguished road
SAGA YACHTS

Dear Reg
I am the proud owner of a recently built saga
35 hull #11
All boat builders need to function under the stress of producing the product at the right price: meeting needs of the customer, suppliers and staff. The factory is always open for you to view, the workers are skilled, available and willing to give you time. As for the boat, my expectations have been meet. I have owned four boats and visited many builders. The Saga is built with attention to detail, details that only an experienced builder can add to its production proccess. My Saga has features which are just not available on other production boats. In short I am now the proud owner of a custom boat which could only be replaced by Saga Yachts.
Alan does not need to justify himself or his factory. Go see for yourself, you will be impressed.
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  #15  
Old 01-13-2005
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tweetybd is on a distinguished road
SAGA YACHTS

Bluesmoods/Keith,

I certainly agree with a lot of the good things said about Saga, and know from firsthand knowledge of their quality and design -- even the standard equipment list is impressive (a neighbor owned a Saga 43 for several years). I''m looking forward to seeing the 409 (maybe at the Philly Boat Show?)

I''m glad that you posted Alan''s response (but wish that he''d done it directly), since Reg obviously needed his "hand slapped" in public. I don''t believe that he could defend some of his non-substantiated comments by a desire to save a fellow sailor grief. Anyone who makes accusations/comments like his (e.g., the Ponzi Scheme method of using new boat deposits to finance the finishing of existing orders, as well as hyperbole such as "house of cards" and "in hock up to its eyeballs" (which had an almost gleefully-vindictive tone) should have supporting information (of course, he can blame it all on an over-zealous attorney).

It''s also curious that he hasn''t responded to Alan''s reply that was posted three weeks ago. C''mon, Reg, if there''s things that we should know, tell us -- but substantiate them (and if you were mistaken or overzealous, you own Alan an apology).

As for Alan''s owning a Saga -- I''d be surprised if he owned anything else, and it is testimony in his faith in his own product.
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  #16  
Old 03-04-2007
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RegBates is on a distinguished road
Proof that Saga Yachts is a sham

It's easy for Allan to own a Saga when he does it with other people's money, as he's always done.
http://saga409.blogspot.com/
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  #17  
Old 03-05-2007
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Reg...that was a two year old post in case you didn't notice. As a matter of fact YOUR last post was here on this thread two years ago. Do you just show up to slam Saga??
Saga is now being produced by PSC and hopefully that will resolve the financial issues since it is really a fine boat. Welcome back...hope you have more to add to the forum.
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  #18  
Old 03-05-2007
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Most boat builders do experience financial difficulties at some point in their lifespan, even the most successful ones...

Two posts over two years, both slamming saga seems to indicate that Reg has an axe to grind with them, and Sailnet is really not an appropriate forum for personal vendettas IMHO.
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  #19  
Old 07-03-2007
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davidmsw2 is on a distinguished road
saga 409

our previous boat was a 2002 tartan 3500 which we thoroughly enjoyed. We have looked, with open eyes at the larger boats over the years including the various Saga at the Annapolis show. If it were not for the narrow beam I would opt for the Saga 43 which I believe is a much better sailing and live aboard boat than the 409. For us, the 409 appeared more of a production boat and not as well made as the 43. Crusader yachts in Annapolis now sells the brand. If you have the extra money you might want to consider the Outbound 44 which has caught our eye so to speak. Excellent boat. David
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  #20  
Old 07-03-2007
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David...I think this thread is dead. Be advised that SAGA is owned by Pacific Seacraft which recently filed for bankruptcy. Buyer beware at the moment!
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