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  #21  
Old 01-10-2005
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Cruising Catamarans Offshore

garyp,

Lifting keel boats are more expensive than fixed keel boats and $50k is not much for an ocean going boat.

The less expensive lifting keel that I know is the Feeling. It is made by Kirie and even if the 36 (new for around 150k euros) is a Class A boat (European Classified as Ocean going) I would not call him an ocean going yacht.

http://www.kirie.com/#

Regarding cats, I find this sailnet article fair and interesting:

http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=jkrets006
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  #22  
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Cruising Catamarans Offshore

No Problem Gary
You probably read in my answers that I really like Cats... and that I know that some people hate them ( for whatever reason)

I am NOT an all knowing expert... by far not. I did a lot of reading on cats as I eventually will own one and go cruising with it, around the same areas as you are planning... the big dream, a lot of us all have.

I am also highly allergic to people who come up with standards like Euro A qualification and Loyds stuff and so forth. Also allergic of people who come up with fancy formulas about righting moment and comfort equaisons... Thats my own opinion and not up to discussion anyhow.

As far as Gemini, I looked at a couple and was not at all impressed with the quality of built. I think if you can see shortcomings than the rest ( which you cannot see ) aint so much better. Of course face it, its considerable cheaper than some of the french ones.

Prout. For a while I loved them, being a little over engineered in the rigging ( lots of stays ) and the fact that you can do mainsail changes ( reefing ) and stuff from the cockpit. But they are also slap happy ( low freeboard between the hulls ) and they are heavy. Heavy means slow. I dont want a multi when it is slow ... Motor with that saildrive thingy didnt impress me either .

WHat I liked : PDQ 36 Classic. Yes the CLassic with two outboards in a hole. You can lift them out of the water completly, they dont weight a ton, are easy repaired and so forth ...there used to be one for sale with all pink headliner and all interieour... went real LOW for around 100 grand. Almost bought it, but than real live kicked in and college for daughter was more important.

Also I like the 35 and 37 Fountain pajots , these are tanks.. but sail refreshingly fast.

Problem is with Multis more than Monos that people STUFF them full with all kinds of stuff. There is sooooo much room to do that. However due to the lower initial weight of a multi adding 2000 lbs of STUFF will mean you just added 25 % of the total weight. ( JUST FOR KICKS it alwasy depends on the boat, keep calm , it can be 27 or 23 % , who cares ) In a 30000 lbs mono hull the 2000 lbs dissapear ( again calm... its JUST an example )

Money no object I would get a 42 footer with dagger boards and go-fast carbon rig
lotsa sail area and so forth ... will never happen.....

than again I might find one of those upside down multis floating around...there seem to be many......lol ( YES I should keep my mouth shut )

There are many cats around, and more and more coming. Email the guys at 2 hulls or Cheaspeake Catamarane center. Both are good people to deal with.

Corsair 28 is a FAST alternative, Centercockpit version is ugly and there is NO room on the boat. Also you will be racing all the time ( which is fun ) Super fast boat which needs a strong hand. Expensive as them suckers dont loose value.

Thorsten
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  #23  
Old 01-12-2005
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Cruising Catamarans Offshore

Check out the Catalac8m. I lived aboard for over a year and cruised to the Bahamas. Nice cruiser 27 ft by 13''10" beam with about 28" draft and 7,000 lbs displacement. It has one outboard that steers with the rudders. I averaged 5 knots for 10,000 miles both sail and motor out cruising. Not a fast boat but a great cruiser with lots of room and built really strong. I once lost a throttle cable when I was nosing into a slip and could not put it in reverse and hit the dock HARD. The result? Two V shaped holes in the dock where the bows hit! No damage to the boat but a minor scratch. Mine cost 27K and I put about 7K more in upgrades to get her out cruising. Had a blast. I know several others who have been living aboard and cruising on these boats for years. The 9m is bigger with a different layout. AND there has not be one documented case of a capsize. I sold her and got back most of my money too. (I built my own cat with the money so I''m a catamaran guy)

Hope this helps on your search

Brad
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Cruising Catamarans Offshore

Here is my thought on the subject... I have never sailed a cat other than a small Hobie in Mexico, but you should consider what kind of sailing will you be doing?? Most cats are made to be floating condos, plenty of room, big decks and cabins for enjoyment and sitting at anchor. Will they capsize, sure they will, but so will a monohull. The reason a mono will stay up is a lot of lead at the bottom that cat does not have but that same weight makes the mono slower. If I was ocean crossing, I would go mono hull,if I was hopping around the Carribean from island to island that are in line of sight or just about it, with a lot of sitting at anchor enjoying a cool drink, then a cat might be the one.
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Old 01-18-2005
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Cruising Catamarans Offshore

After reading this:

http://www.rina.org.uk/rfiles/IJSCT/Discuss/deakin.pdf

I can say that I understand Catamarans stability better.

Comparing Catamarans with Monohulls, Catamarans are much less prone to be capsized by a wave, but on the other hand they can be capsized by excessive wind, an impossible thing with a modern monohull.

Catamarans are also easier to pitch pole being the main risk factor (to capsize) the conditions where you can find big waves (heel)associated with strong or gustier winds.

Paulo
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Old 01-18-2005
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Cruising Catamarans Offshore

whats up Paulo

give us the real reasons you dislike cats so much .....

quote :
capsized by excessive wind, an impossible thing with a modern monohull.
quote end

I have no comment ....
Are you trying to sell a monohull or what?

Thor
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Old 01-18-2005
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Hi thor

I don''t dislike cats (only the fat ugly ones).
Fact is that three years ago I was even considering buying a Tri, one of those fast things that flirt with 20 knots of speed. I didn''t buy it cause it was a lot more expensive and marina costs were 1,5 higher. It was also a bit small for the family.

I posted the link to that paper because it is a superb study in catamaran stability, I have learned a lot with it and I thought It would be nice to share it.

And Thor, obviously it is impossible to capsize a modern cruiser monohull sail boat only by wind force (no waves). All of them have an AVS of more than 110º,most of them between 120 and 130 and a downflooding angle superior to 100º.

The boat can lie flat on the hull (90º) driven by wind force, but at this position the wind is not making any force on the sails (passing over them), so the boat will rise up again without capsizing.

Paulo
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Old 01-18-2005
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UNfortuantely in the real world, it is seldom a matter of "just" anything.
Witness the recent Sydney to Hobart race. Where one of the best monohulls in the world got all the way capsized (stayed that way for four days) and abbandoned, and eventually very expensively salvaged.

They are a cat.0 boat, abolsutely all the bells and whisteles and design specs for maximum safety in offshore racing. But they hit a sunfish with their keel at about 15 knots. Kept sailing for about 12 more hours with not a problem in the world...Until they tacked.

Sure, righting stability is important, but in the end, there is a wide pantheon of things waiting in the wings to surprise you and show you that what you had designed against ever happening actually can.

Sasha
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  #29  
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Cruising Catamarans Offshore

windforce with no waves ....

Thats Ice Sailing buddy and those babies indeed tip over once in a while ..lol

all way to many numbers Paulo, real life aint numbers, but situations mother nature throws at us, no engineer with all the numbers in hand will survirve the little quircks real life can dish out for us.
The model in the 10 year old test or is it 20 years old ? I forgot? has quite a sailplan on it, couldnt find the "numbers" of that anywhere. but I have to admit , got a little sleepy after a while reading it.

I have no clue what the stability factor or whatever is of my boat. I know if it blows the boat will lean, if its leaning to much i need to put a reef in and change headsails , if it doesnt lean the reef comes out and something big needs to be attached to the pointy end

You can check it for me , its a j30 .... probably dangerous as hell ...lol

lotsa fun though

Thorsten
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  #30  
Old 01-19-2005
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Cruising Catamarans Offshore

If you build something that has the greatest stability upside down it will always try to get there.Your job as the sailor is to try and stop it.I think that is all Paulo is trying to say.I do not even classify a boat that stays capsized in a storm without being holed a sailboat to begin with.Like I have said before comparing F1 racing cars to actual cars people drive is not a comparison.They have all the cutting edge technology but don`t hit a shopping cart in the parking lot,or you will be out of the race.
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