Help with Two boats I'm Considering

[tbeargladd]

Alrighty you wonderful sailing experts, I'm in need of your assistance Please!

Please don't take too long to respond.

I'm now living in the Bay Area (San Francisco/Oakland)

I'm considering purchasing a S2 Sail boat about a 35-36, and/or a Hans Chrisitan 34'. I would prefer the 33' Hans Christianson but my cash flow and the bank will not loan me enough to purchase this boat, so it comes down to the 34' Hans Christianson or the S2. I need as much information as possible.

How well is the construction of these boats, as I mean the hull and the house sandwich to the hull, Mast stepped Keel, and integrity of Keel!

I know the Hans Christianson is a slower boat and produce a wetter surface, because its a long keel. Wetter sailing won't hender what I think about this boat, because I expect that from a long keel. How does if favor over the S2

How is the construction of the S2, what should I look out for. I fear the expose prop and rudder!

And yes my intention is to voyage beyond coastal waters. Man I want to travel.

Can the S2 construction handle Heavy Weather Sailing. Considering Rigging is up to the potential of the boat.

Come on you wonderful people, Heeeelllpppp!

Thank you
Tbeargladd

[KeelHaulin]

You might check the following links:

http://www.hanschristian.org/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

http://members.aol.com/s2owners/s2home.htm

For detailed reviews you might consider purchasing a few from here:

http://www.practical-sailor.com/boatreviews/

For Appx. Valuation:

http://www.nadaguides.com/MarineHome...Pr=0&wPg=2004&

Be sure and get a hull survey and check the registration history thoroughly. If you need links that discuss these points I can dig some up.

Note that for insurance purposes the standing rigging must be less than 10 years old; otherwise insurance companies wont insure the boat unless new rigging is installed (so I have heard).

In terms of which boat; the both are probably a fine choice. In terms of hull design; I could not tell you which boat is better. In reading a review of the S2 on the owners club pages it notes that the deck and hull are sandwich construction with balsa core. On the upside; the Center Cockpit version is amazingly spacious with both fore and aft cabins; companionway aft; toilet/shower/bathtub. This is practically unheard-of in boats less than 40' LOA!

If there are issues with dryrot they will become evident in the hull survey. You should have contingency in the sales agreement that you can cancel the sale upon the discovery of dryrot in the hull or superstructure (IMHO). Advice to me from a surveyor was that you should decide on price/purchase before a survey; with a sales contract that protects you in the event of problems found in the survey that would affect valuation, ability to insure, or title transfer.

HTH...

[tbeargladd]

Thank you Keel Haulin for the information, looking into this as I write this response, it was a great help. I will ensure my back door if any complication surface during the survey! That was a great heads up! Thanks for your quick response. I went and check one out today, look to be in decent shape. But a survey will tell me more!

[KeelHaulin]

In reading another article series by Pascoe; I don't think I would purchase a boat that has a balsa cored hull (especially below waterline). Check out these articles and consder his experience/opinion on this issue before you go to the expense of getting a hull survey...

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/core_materials.htm
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/cored_hull_bottoms.htm

[tbeargladd]

Good day, Keel Haulin

The hull is suppose to be fiberglass and the house is balsa core, this tib bit of info is out of Practical Sailor;

"The hull is solid fiberglass. The deck is cored with end-grain balsa in the way of the walkways. During the production run of the 11-meter, blisters popped their ugly heads onto the marine scene. Says Scott, "We did a lot of research right away. We had been using vinylster resin from the start. What we wound up doing was replacing the exterior layer of cloth with chopped matt to eliminate the problems caused, we felt, by the binder in the cloth. Up to that point we'd always thought the chopper gun was a quick and dirty tool that we'd never use. We were among the first in the industry to come up with a five-year anti-blister warranty in 1984." "

So still in a delima here, but the information was indeed very good also a Sailor/Authur, Hal Roth, book "How to Sail Around the World" stated a great deal of information regarding hulls, but didn't turn is nose up in regards to what construction is better or worst just that the repair of certain materials are harder to retrive than others in these modern days.

I read from from Pratical Sailor that the whole boat, their 35'Center Cockpit is made of balsa core, not only the house but the hull also, which were constructed from 1986 -1987 35 were built
(From the S2 Web Site)
"All S2 cruising sailboats featured a solid fiberglass hull, and a balsa cored deck, except for the 35C that had a balsa cored hull and deck."

The 36C were constructed in 1980-1987 and 66 were built.

Your information is truely Helpful, by reading that information that you stated to me, made me go back to the Pratical Sailor's Review and read a little closer, along with going to the S2 Web site and reading a lot closer about the 35' Center Cockpit, which I have crossed off my list as one of the sail boats I was about to go check out.

Good looking out their buddy, great job! It sure helps to keep one thinking when theirs so much to keep in mind.

Boat buying is tough!

tbeargladd

[Irwin32]

Hans Christians are known for their fine quality and weaworthiness. If I was planning on going offshore, this would be an easy choice for me. Nothing wrong with an S2, but the Hans C were designed to go offshore and have an excellent reputation for being able to do that.

They are heavy boats and will need wind to move them. If the two boats are in the same price range, then I would wonder what is wrong with the Hans C as those boats are usually pretty expensive.

[KeelHaulin]

Originally Posted by tbeargladd

The hull is suppose to be fiberglass and the house is balsa core, this tib bit of info is out of Practical Sailor;

"The hull is solid fiberglass. The deck is cored with end-grain balsa in the way of the walkways. During the production run of the 11-meter, blisters popped their ugly heads onto the marine scene. Says Scott, "We did a lot of research right away. We had been using vinylster resin from the start. What we wound up doing was replacing the exterior layer of cloth with chopped matt to eliminate the problems caused, we felt, by the binder in the cloth. Up to that point we'd always thought the chopper gun was a quick and dirty tool that we'd never use. We were among the first in the industry to come up with a five-year anti-blister warranty in 1984." "

The statement made by Scott is contradictory to Pascoe's analysis of blistering. I have a feeling that the quote from Scott is from sometime in the mid-late 80's. Pascoe states that a hull that has no CSM will not have blister problems because the source of blistering is water intrusion into the fibers of CSM. Structural laminate is protected from this because it's fibers are fully encased in resin if properly laid up (no end-grains will be exposed because they lie parallel to the hull surface).

So still in a delima here, but the information was indeed very good also a Sailor/Authur, Hal Roth, book "How to Sail Around the World" stated a great deal of information regarding hulls, but didn't turn is nose up in regards to what construction is better or worst just that the repair of certain materials are harder to retrive than others in these modern days.

Hmm... I have not read Roth's book; but I do think that hull construction is probably one of the most important considerations in purchase of a sailboat. While you can probably attempt a circumnavigation in just about any hull type; it's the strength of the hull and longevity of it's design (resistance to breakdown) that would determine if you make it around the world. While wood hulled boats are now considered obsolete; they were heavily fabricated and will easily withstand offshore conditions. On the flipside; a ULDB racing hull will take the beating but can you be positive that it will not have issues with delaminations at bulkheads or the keel breaking off while rounding Cape Horn? The race boats made today are marvels of engineering and materials but they are like F1 cars, constructed at the very limits of power/weight/strength.

For those of us looking for a good used sailboat that is reasonably priced, we need to be sure and weed out the hull designs that are suspect to short-term failure while also looking for something that fits our needs in terms of cabin layout, sportyness, and what type of sailing we want to do. Once you have made those determinations the list of suitable boats gets much narrower.

I read from from Pratical Sailor that the whole boat, their 35'Center Cockpit is made of balsa core, not only the house but the hull also, which were constructed from 1986 -1987 35 were built
(From the S2 Web Site)
"All S2 cruising sailboats featured a solid fiberglass hull, and a balsa cored deck, except for the 35C that had a balsa cored hull and deck."

The 36C were constructed in 1980-1987 and 66 were built.

Your information is truely Helpful, by reading that information that you stated to me, made me go back to the Pratical Sailor's Review and read a little closer, along with going to the S2 Web site and reading a lot closer about the 35' Center Cockpit, which I have crossed off my list as one of the sail boats I was about to go check out.

That's interesting... It's a shame that the hull of the 35C is balsa cored; it has an amazing floorplan for a 35.

Good looking out their buddy, great job! It sure helps to keep one thinking when theirs so much to keep in mind.

Boat buying is tough!

Thanks; glad I could help. Be sure and do some careful thinking about the type of sailing you will be doing; and try to narrow the list of available boats down to meet those needs as closely as possible; of course price will work into the equation also. The two boats you mentioned; seem to be quite different from one another; the S2 is more on the racer/cruiser side and the HC is more of an offshore curiser type. In terms of SF bay you could sail either boat well there is plenty of wind inside the gate. The question is do you want to do a leisurely sail or do you want to be close hauled and heeling with the lee rail submerged? Do you want a boat that could sail around the world or do you want a boat that you can comfortably sail down the coast in light/med air?

[tbeargladd]

Originally Posted by Irwin32

Hans Christians are known for their fine quality and weaworthiness. If I was planning on going offshore, this would be an easy choice for me. Nothing wrong with an S2, but the Hans C were designed to go offshore and have an excellent reputation for being able to do that.

They are heavy boats and will need wind to move them. If the two boats are in the same price range, then I would wonder what is wrong with the Hans C as those boats are usually pretty expensive.

Yes Irwin32, what you stated is correct.
Their is nothing wrong with the HC they are price as to be expected. I was just trying to equate by compromising the dollar amount for another boat the doesn't stand right next to the HC but is a step or two below, but jus as fine a boat!

First statement is also correct, S2 which is a fin keel, little more speed with less wind to drive her but the strength and durability of the HC just stands alone between the two. Choices are like a seasaw just trying to figure out which side I want to get on!

Thank you for your words of encouragement!

Ted!

[tbeargladd]

KH,

Your statement in the last paragraph sums it all up! That help to make my mind up!

Thank you, very much for your words of wisdom!

Ted