Info on 38' Bently/Ingrid Cutter

[Jim H]

Hi, All

My family and I had fun looking at '78 Bentley Cutter:

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...hesailinglife&

If you've never heard of a "Bentley," don't feel bad. Basically, it's a 38 foot Ingrid design that was done by the Emerald Bay Trading Company in Taiwan. Most of the Ingrids (kit and complete) were done by Ingrid Bluewater Boatworks (in Woodinville, Washington, I believe).

So, I know about the pros/cons of Ingrids (owner finished ones can be real iffy). However, I don't know anything about the ones made by Emerald Bay Trading Company in Taiwan. Anyone with information about the quality of work done by that yard in 1978?

Our simply pass-through suggested that the interior and exterior work seemed relatively solid and well-done, especially when compared to the "cave" of an owner-finished one we once went through.

Thanks!

Jim H

[sailingdog]

One good resource would be the Practical Sailor, two-volume, Boat Buying guide. It will probably have the real dirt on the boat...both good and bad.

[Jim H]

Originally Posted by sailingdog

One good resource would be the Practical Sailor, two-volume, Boat Buying guide. It will probably have the real dirt on the boat...both good and bad.

It's a great set-- I was able to buy it for $20 off Ebay last year. It doesn't have reviews of either the Ingrid or the Bentley, however. Tonight, though, I can go through the reviews of other Taiwan models in it to see if any were from Emerald Bay.

I also read "Heart of Glass" last year, and it had good informaiton about the Taiwan boat builders. I should check it out again to see if Emerald Bay was discussed (good or bad).

My first impressions of the boat were good, but I only went on it once. "Young Sun" 35s and 43s also appear from time to time, and they aren't bad looking but some reports raise questions and might explain whey they are priced less than similar boats... Or maybe it's just name recognition...

Jim H

[sailingfool]

Jim,

Seems like a lot of money for an odd-ball boat. It looks to me like the designer and builder were practicing at yacht design and did everthing ad-hoc. For instance, where's the other half of the engine - 35 HP in 27,000 is frighteningly underpowered. A three cylinder engine?? Teak decks and made in Taiwan in the '70s - sounds like a perfect storm for financial ruin. If this boat really speaks to you, be sure to get an exptremely thorough and expereienced surveyor, and pay him or her for the full day, they'll need it.

Good luck.

[Jim H]

Originally Posted by sailingfool

Jim,

Seems like a lot of money for an odd-ball boat.

Don't worry-- we're not falling for this boat. I'm just trying to figure it out, and improve my knowlege of Taiwan-made boats in the process.

I agree with you about it being an odd-ball. I've yet to find much information about it at all. I wouldn't be excited about the teak decks, nor the challenge of reselling it someday with the nearly unknown name. You might also have mentioned that the 50 gallon diesel tank is bit small for this size boat, and the Taiwan metallurgy from that period could be a disaster.

I scanned the Practical Sailor guides this evening, and their opinion of Taiwan yards of that period is pretty cautious. The Island Trader 37/38 review is probably the harshest of all in the two volumes, and the Tayana 37 and Hans Christian reviews toss out red flags about how the boats may have been made. Not that the yards couldn't produce good or great boats, but that quality could be inconsistent or suprisingly bad at times.

That said, when I look at the other nine 38' Ingrids currently listed on yachtworld, the Bentley's $67K asking price is about average in the list (52,500 to 95,000). Of course, it's not Washington-made like the others. (On the other hand, some of the true Ingrids were owner-finished in unfortunate ways...) As for the 35 hp engine, the other Ingrids have about the same displacement, and one has only a 30 hp. Most have a 36 or 37 hp, and one has a 42 hp, and most are 3 cyclinder. (Is there a problem with 3 cyclinders I don't know about?)

The bottom line is that I'd prefer the 16,000 lbs of a Crealock 37, but I don't have the coin (yet). 27,000 lbs. is too much, but I have to admit that I liked the look and feel of this odd-ball Bentley a bit more than the Tayana 37s, Ingrid and Hans Christian I've been on. Even the teak seemed less intimidating than a Baba 35.

Thanks for the feedback.

Jim H

[WHOOSH]

Jim, I would encourage you to dig into the boat further if it's suitable for your needs (which should be about offshore cruising with this boat, not day sailing).

We would all like to find reliable 'generic' descriptions of boat models/brands but, especially with older Taiwan boats as you have stated, this just isn't realistic. E.g. some folks love their Force 50 ketches from this same era, yet I've heard of one case where the boat was terribly tender and, ultimately, when the owner was using a grinder on the hull, all the ballast poured out in the form of sand. Sometimes a given model was provided with lead ballast, other times it was iron punchings with concrete. WRT the listing you gave us, I'm not even sure I believe it's an 'Ingrid' hull; where did the Taiwan company get the plugs from (hull & deck)? My guess is that, since the company was probably not well capitalized up front, they found plugs with a similar hull form - after all, this from the gala 'double-ender' days of Westsails - and labeled it accordingly.

Also, boats 3 decades old typically adopt much of the personality of their owners over time, as systems are changed/replaced/added. I honestly don't think it will prove helpful - for both these reasons: Taiwan's general rep of that era and the age of the boat - and it may even be misleading to associate this boat with these model/brand of boats generally.

Having said all that, IF this kind of boat serves your needs, I'd suggest you dig further with the broker. It's very presentable. The engine is indeed smaller than expected from today's perspective, but that MD17 was very typical for that kind of boat back then. The MD2B was common in W32's, after all. Teak decks an issue? Absolutely. OTOH they are removeable, and you can do that job yourself (which you should assume is on the horizon).

Does the boat have issues? Yes - e.g. I'm not sure how long I'd like to live with that huge barn door rudder and tiller; I'd consider adding a trim tab. Similarly, while double enders used to be seen as the only viable stern on an ocean cruising boat, that's certainly not true any longer...and I wouldn't like to live with the absence of buoyancy & storage back aft. I'm also not a fan of the sea washing down the side deck and right under my own 'stern', while not having an ergonomic backrest to support me. But these kinds of things can be addressed or worked around - e.g. I saw a very functional W32 cockpit a few years ago, with comfy back rests, seawater being diverted off the side decks, and overall a great cruising cockpit.

Ultimately - even with a thorough survey, given the limitations on what you can expect from a surveyor - there's inherent risk in considering a boat like this: old and of uncertain ancestry. OTOH that should also affect the price being asked. If she's your kind of boat, I'd say dig deeper. And if you buy her, shim up that starboard table leaf. Good luck to you!

Jack

[Jim H]

Jack, thanks for the thoughtful and kind reply.

As for the Bentley, I've also wondered where the hull plug came from, since the Ingrids were made for years after the Bentley was made, so it wasn't like the molds were sold and shipped to Taiwan. You may be exactly right that it's compared with an Ingrid simply because it resembles one, and now I want to go back and stare at it to find clues about similarities and differences, just for fun. I think it's funny that so many of the Taiwan hulls have mysterious origins.

Generally, we don't have much interest in the double-enders, other than going aboard when possible to see the quality of work and what decisions were made in terms of rigging and interior. Aesthetically, I think some were well-done, and the surprise with this boat was the overall execution and the appearance of both moderate use and sensible maintenance by previous owners. When that was combined with the mystery of it's origins, I thought it would be fun to find out more.

We often will walk offshore boats in the $60k range, simply because we have a beach lot we could liquidate fairly quickly for about that sum, but overall condition can vary radically. Having read your posts here and on other boards, I have to admit that we plan to visit a Pearson 424 Ketch someday. There's one in Washington that just came back from 3 years in the South Pacific that might be a good candidate for a walk-through, even though the asking price is about $40k over the value of our beach lot.

Basically, if my family takes a break for some cruising, it will be a serious break. We're not interested in living aboard for the sake of living aboard, and my wife is even more agressive than I on the offshore objectives. So, like many others, I'm looking at angles that might provide a strong boat "with issues" that we can handle from a repair/rebuild perspective that won't be pennywise/pound foolish in terms of time or funds, and this is no mean feat. When I mention that we have two kids, many think nothing less than a 52' Farrington Ketch would do, but we've always been a small house, car, living space type of family.

In terms of "angles," we're considering cosmetic and name recognition issues. A cosmetically blistered Valiant 40 might be interesting, or possibly a Taiwan-made boat that checks out in a way much more sensibly than reputation would suggest. The Bentley's displacement is too much for us to get excited about it, just as the size limitations of a Nic 32 we saw last year couldn't be overcome. It's an education, however, seeing and understanding the different trade-offs.

Thanks again for the reply.

Jim H