Tartan 34C "upgrades"

[wumhenry]

There are several Tartan 34C's for sale in my general vicinity that were altered by having steering wheels installed and by moving the traveler from the cockpit to the cabintop. JEFF H advised me that those aren't good changes in a T34C. My question is, how hard would it be to put the traveller back in the cockpit DIY -- and how expensive would it be to have someone else do the work? (Hoping for an answer from Jeff H, but anyone else with an opinion on the subject should feel free to put his 2 cents in.)

[Gex]

Wuwhenry, Can you link me the thread where Jeff states those modifcations are not good, or explain why? I searched the forums and couldn't find it. I'm actually interested in buying a Tartan 34C with those exact modications done.

Thanks

- Dave

[wumhenry]

It was in a private message, but I don't see any reason why Jeff would object to it being quoted here:

"The Tartan 34's are a very poor choice for wheel steering. They work very well with a tiller especially of you plan to short-hand one. When they are rigged for wheel steering the wheels are generally maximized in diameter and placed quite far forward in the cockpit. While this boat has brought the binacle quite far forward, making the cockpit less useable, the small diameter wheel would keep you from being able to see up the slot when beating.

Another poor set up on this boat is the cabin top mounted traveller. The Tartan really benefitrs from using the traveller and you can't easily trim the traveller from the wheel when you have a cabin top mounted traveller. Also the relationship of the boom length to the traveller position is important when a boat is designed for a cabin top mounted traveller. The tartan was never designed to have a cabin top mounted traveller and so really is not a good candidate for one. The Tartan 34c's were the short boom model which had very short booms and tall mains requiring a lot more mainsheet tension and finesse to keep adjusted properly."

[garyp]

With all respect to Jeff, I think his objection to a house-mounted traveler on the T34 is that performance suffers, espec when there is not a spare pair of hands to "ride" the traveler, extracting maximum performance during lulls, gusts and small wind shifts. On the other hand, the usual reason for moving the traveler to the house top is to get the damn thing out of the way, set it and forget it. Its all a matter of how you want to use your boat. I wouldn't consider it a deal-breaker if I liked the boat otherwise, and the traveler conversion is properly done.

Moving the sheeting to mid-boom engenders both a loss of leverage and an increase of 50-75% in the loading on the mainsheet tackle and the traveler. I don't have the T34's boom length in front of me, but a real rough guess would have the mainsheet load increasing from 1600 to 2500 lbs in 25 kts of wind when converting to mid-boom sheeting. (The reason why I can even make a rough guess is that I have just run the loading numbers on my Pearson 323 because I too want to get the damn thing out of the cockpit) Traveler loading is normally 20% of mainsheet loading. It is important that the tackle be sized to meet these increased loads, and normally the mechanical advantage (ie: hauling parts of the tackle) should also be increased.

Restoring the traveler to its original location should be pretty straight forward. If you have to replace the traveler track, tackle and main sheet you're going to blow a grand real quick, just on parts.

Regarding the tiller/wheel, I love sailing with a tiller but they usually take a lot of space in the cockpit. Here again, the most important thing is how well the conversion has been done. If you like the boat be sure to have your surveyor address any such conversions

Gary

[Jeff_H]

My advice was specific to the Tartan 34 and was not based on performance as much as the Tartan 34's behavior in gusty conditions. The T34 has a particularly long cockpit. When you put the traveller on the house you need to go to a new boom with a deeper section to resist the high bending loads and a very high purchase to deal with the very high loads (roughly 3,000-4,000lbs upwind) for a 34 footer. In talking to an owner who converted back from a coachtop traveller, they felt that converting back was a matter of safety sailing in changeable conditions such as those that William's planned sailing venue is likely to be exposed to as well.

The tiller vs wheel problem is also specific to the Tartan 34 (and a lot of older boats of that era). The cockpit layout on the Tartan 34 was not really designed to accommodate wheel steering. As a result you end up with a very small wheel that is placed on a pedestal placed very far forward in the cockpit. The wheel position cuts the cockpit in thirds and blocks access to the length of the cockpit from the companionway. It limits the ability to rig a cockpit table or simply hang out when on the anchor. I also suggested that the wheel made no sense for William because William is concerned with singlehanding and you can't reach the control lines from wheel position. Also because of the binacle position you cannot see the leading edge of the jib without sitting on the coaming and sailing with your arm completely outstretched, not a very suitable resolution. When a T34 is sailed with a tiller and tiller extension, all control lines can be reached and the tiller tilted out of the way at anchor.

There was nothing about performance in my recommendations. My recommendations were strictly about William's specific goals for the boat, ease of handling, safety, and practical utility considerations.

Respectfully,
Jeff

[wumhenry]

Thanks guys.
I received an email yesterday from a T34C owner in Holland(!) in reply to a message asking the same question I posted in the Tartan Owners forum. He just finished re-converting his from wheel steering back to tiller steering and sent rough directions for making a suitable tiller, with photo illustrations. He also included a photo of the cockpit floor after he removed the wheel, and it ain't pretty.

[garyp]

Its too rainy to go sailing or go to the beach, so I looked at T34c's on Yachtworld, and looked up the rig dimensions.

I thought Jeff's figure of 3-4,000 lbs mid-boom main sheet loading seemed a little high. I used 30kts of wind, approx the apparent wind speed when sailing upwind in 25 kts, a point beyond which most of us would be reefed, but not uncommon for a gust on an unreefed main. I used the 10.5 ft boom length, but readily grant that many T34 booms are longer.

Using the formula E square times P square times 0.00431 times wind speed squared divided by (the square root of P square +E square) times distance from mainsheet attachment to tack of mainsail, I come up with 2650 lbs, close to 3000 lbs but a ways from 4000.

I notice that many of the boats for sale on Yachtworld have a house top traveler. (Also wheels are common, but I believe a wheel was a factory option)

Perusing the T34 owners group website posts, I would say that most of the T34c owners with house top travelers are happy with them.

That said (as my mother used to say) just because most people are jumping off the cliff dosen't mean that you should.

Obviously I don't have anything better to do today than argue a little bit with Jeff. (Maybe I should be in church) But I still believe a properly done house top traveler can be a viable system for a T34, and might be preferred by some cruisers. "Properly done" would include increasing mainsheet purchase, spreading the boom attachment over 2 or 3 points, and reinforcing the house top. The most commonly used traveler seems to be Harken's big boat system.

[garyp]

I forgot to note that in figuring mid-boom sheeting, I used the distance of 5 ft from the end of the boom.
Regards,
Gary

[yongeb]

WumHenry,

I was looking through old posts and it appears you got instructions on how to convert the T34C from wheel steering to tiller steering from some cat in Holland. Could I pimp those instructions from you?

I recently bought a 1969 T34 in San Diego and am in the process of restoring it. Did you end up buying the T34?

Sorry to spam this out there but I don't have enough posts to PM someone yet. Thanks.

[wumhenry]

Sorry: I didn't buy a 34C, and I don't have the email anymore.