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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
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  #41  
Old 07-30-2006
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OK guys I have walked on this one. If anyone sees a J-40, 37C, 35C, J-110 for sale feel free to email me.
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  #42  
Old 07-30-2006
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Having now gone through the purchasing process a few times, I was surprised to learn that the offers as a percemtage of aslkng prices seem to be much higher with boats than they are for buying a house. While one would think nothing of making a lowball offer on a house, it seems that peole are surprised when you offer more than a few thousand less than the asking price on a boat. Maybe I'm wrong but this is my general impression.
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  #43  
Old 07-31-2006
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Strategy

I'm a boat broker who just read through this thread. It is a fascinating thread. I do appreciate the terms that the surveyor CardiacPaul recently put yacht purchase in.

From a broad perspective, the current value of a vessel is really a function of it's current condition and the current market conditions which can include regional effects. The extreme case of regional effects is when looking at prices overseas which will swing dramatically with exchange rates. Buyers need to be careful about not paying over market value or they will likely be making up the difference someday upon resale. If that resale is within a few years, paying over market will be more of an issue since there won't be much depreciation to blur the issue.

For strategy I recommend first focusing on getting recent comparable sold pricing info from your broker, including any regional effects. Then make an assessment of the condition of the vessel in question. Your offer should be contingent on a survey and sea trial. Your broker's comps can also give you input on spreads between asking and selling prices for the subject vessel as input to your offers. Some high quality well kept vessels tend to sell closer to the asking price. Your final pre-survey offer should reflect both comps and your pre-survey assessment so that you can end up at the perceived value. Finally, hire a good, reasonable surveyor and you can always renegotiate based on any nasty surprises in the survey.

Hopefully your seller went through a similar process (without survey) to determine the asking price, although the asking price will likely include some negotiating room (5-15%). If the buyer and seller don't negotiate based on the yacht condition and market conditions, there will be problems. Individual motivations also can drive the deal from either or both sides. The important thing about your own motivation is to use it to solve problems that come up in the deal, instead of getting distracted by details unrelated to your original motivation for the purchase or sale project. For example your original motivation is going to be about acquiring a particular kind of yacht at a reasonable price, not getting the best of a seller.

For some less popular vessels getting comparables can be challenging, but it can be done.

Last edited by captnnero; 07-31-2006 at 02:27 AM.
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  #44  
Old 07-31-2006
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CaptnNero

Thanx for weighing in. I agree that it's important to get the boat for a fair price. One cannot get insurance coverage for an overpriced boat. Marine financing is based on a "blue book" value too. If I over-offer, I end up paying the overage. I also agree that beating down a seller just to glorify one's ego is pointless too. Also I agree that a well cared for boat is more valuable than one that needs a lot of unknown work.

The boat I am talking about above, the J/37c, is cosmetically excellent, but there are lots of little things that indicate that the current owner isn't real knowledgeable. ie Corrosion at the foot of the mast, oil in the water in the bilge, a loran, old sails, a seriously rough bottom, rod rig never reheaded or replaced, iffy engine mounts, etc. So top dollar is out of the question. Yet what's a good price? I have researched the two J-37c's sold in the past year? One is below my offer, the other is above.

I see you are allowing 5-15% negotiating room. On 114,000 a 97,000 offer is in the 15% range so why isn't it being accepted.

All this said I have given up on the boat and I am looking for another. So this discussion is purely academic.

Last edited by LyleRussell; 07-31-2006 at 07:47 PM.
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  #45  
Old 07-31-2006
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Again, as has been mentioned, the owner may have reasons for not wanting to sell it...but may have put it on the market in spite of those reasons.

One example a previous posting used was he tells his wife he's gonna sell the boat, but doesn't really want too..so he overprices it, and is willing to sell it if he gets a fat premium over what it is worth, but can tell his wife, "Honey, I'm trying to sell it, but no one is interested in it."

The current owner could also be clueless enough to think that the boat is far more valuable than it is. You've said that the current owner doesn't appear to be very knowledgeable. A little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing.
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  #46  
Old 07-31-2006
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Oil in the bilge ?

I'm curious as to that oil in the water in the bilge. Did you take a close look and try to sniff it ? Often oil in the bilge is actually fuel oil indicating a shot fuel tank. That would be typical for that era vessel. Fuel oil can also be leaking from loose or cracked fuel hoses. Another typical scenario is a leaky raw water pump seal. I've even heard of an overpropped engine coking the exhaust, increasing back pressure and then causing non-specific oil leaks as the engine seals are not designed for the high back pressure.

Obviously the oily bilge issue would have had to be pursued agressively on this one if you had stayed in the game.

Happy hunting!

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...oil in the water in the bilge...
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  #47  
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Don't want to get into a discussion of surveying a boat here. Perhaps a subject of a later thread. Perhaps too big a subject for a single thread.

Having found the oil and other things what does one offer? It could need an engine seals, rebuild, a new tank, or just be a dumb ass changing the oil. I budgeted to have an engine mech check over the engine before purchase. But how do I come up with an offer?

If this is starting to sound like a whine. Sorry folks.
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  #48  
Old 08-02-2006
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Seller's problem

Ok, so in the survey you use your surveyor and if its complicated use subject matter professionals to bracket the cost of the fix. The surveyor often will identify a problem but recommend that a mechanic look into it further. If it's expensive/complicated, get an estimate that you are comfortable with. It's the seller's problem. Then you need to negotiate with the seller to fix it at his cost or at your cost. Obviously at your cost it should come off of the contracted price. If the seller fixes it or has it fixed, make sure that it is a proper repair or negotiate a price reduction. You may need your expert to survey the fix.

Manuevering thru such matters is one of the ways the broker earns the commission among many other things, such as showing the boat and/or not showing the boat (no-shows), and just plain answering the phone when someone calls about the boat. The broker only gets paid when the contract makes it thru closing, so he/she is motivated to make it happen for everybody. Sorry, I digress.

Back to the subject. With a significant defect the buyer has an out from the survey. If after investigation the defect is just too scary the buyer can back out. If nothing else, the seller's full motivation will come to light in a hurry at that point.

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Originally Posted by LyleRussell
Don't want to get into a discussion of surveying a boat here. Perhaps a subject of a later thread. Perhaps too big a subject for a single thread.

Having found the oil and other things what does one offer? It could need an engine seals, rebuild, a new tank, or just be a dumb ass changing the oil. I budgeted to have an engine mech check over the engine before purchase. But how do I come up with an offer?

If this is starting to sound like a whine. Sorry folks.
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  #49  
Old 08-02-2006
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Then we get into the Brokers their input/use and problems. I tried to buy several (3) sailboats in Norfolk VA. My experience was that some brokers are ready to list, slow to respond. Why a broker would put a sign on the boat with their name and cell phone number take the message on their voice mail and not respond to the interest leaves me puzzeled. I also found that they don't know their product or their customers very well. I have had them tell me they didn't know anything about sailboats they were power boaters, okay so one can ask questions, learn right? I had one that didn't know how to start the motor he just kept messing around with the switches until the engine cranked, when it filled the boat with fumes I had to tell him to shut it down ! Also the sellers are unrealistic, they leave trash and dirt, broken equipment, don't leave information easily available to brokers or buyers, can't be reached and get huffy when offers are low. I can't imagine selling a house the same way it wouldn't sell, neither does their boats. Each day the boat sits there untended, is costing them money and lowering its market price. Unless some unknowing person with a fat checkbook shows up, an unlikely event, as I have seen boats sit for a year and the sign is faded out, another issue of mine signs on boats and the phone number is long gone. Actually when I see that I keep on looking eles where.
Okay, Okay my bitch session is at an end, just leave it that buying a boat or selling a boat can be a pain in the patoot for all parties involved.
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  #50  
Old 08-02-2006
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Lyle....remember, the inital offering price is just that....inital. That should reflect what you think the boat is worth to you, basically, as is. Once survey, additional component surevys (if needed) and a sea trial are completed, you sit down with the owner/broker and determine a final price, based on the findings. Don't let yourself get discouraged. Buying a boat is rarely easy, and just maybe a deal that doesn't go through is a good deal, in the end.
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