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Boat Prices/Boat Values-Fiberglass

14K views 62 replies 20 participants last post by  LyleRussell 
#1 ·
OK guys I just read your thread about valuing a steel boat. How about a fiberglass one. What multiplier does one apply to the asking price to come up with a good offer price? .85 .75 . My broker thinks .95 of asking on every boat, is appropriate!

I have tried using NADA or asking my insurance company for what they would insure a particular boat. But that results in offers that no one seriously considers.

Yes, condition affects the multiplier, perhaps .9 for a perfect boat ??

Equipment is another factor. With new sails and electronics, do we multiply by .85

Time on market is another factor? If on the market for 2 years would .75 be appropriate?

I think size might be a factor, a 225,000 44 footer might have a lower multiplier than a 115,000 37' ??

What do you folks think?
 
#3 ·
If you find a specific model boat that you want, check the online sources for prices on comparable models, then offer what you think it's worth. You can go crazy trying to figure out a formula. Time on market, age, condition, etc., are all valid things to consider, but in the end, it comes down to what you think it's worth. You could start off at 20% less than the asking price, and dicker from there. No price will be firm till after a survey, so the offered price just gets the ball rolling.

Regards,
 
#4 ·
There really isn't a set formula that is going to work. There are too many variables in buying a sailboat IMHO.
 
#5 ·
Ditto Sailing Dog's opinion. Some boats hold value much better and are in high demand and thus less open to discounting. Others are less desired and in plentiful supply. Some brokers prefer to list high and come down in negotiations...others encourage owners to be realistic to encourage a quicker sale. So...even setting aside age, condition, time on market etc. , I think it is impossible to generalize. The way I've always done it is to try to determine what the boat is worth in FULLY restored "cruise ready" condition by comparing it to others sold (BUC book) of the same model and SIMILAR boats....(i.e. BeneHuntAlinas!) ...then deducting for the cost to bring the boat being looked at to that condition. Then offering somewhat below that depending on my assessment of the owners urgency, the time it wil take to restore and how hard it would be for me to walk away from the boat! Then I let the surveyor help me reduce the cost further by finding the stuff I was not aware of and providing estimates as to the cost to repair.
 
#8 ·
Well, you could go with a survey, and see the results... and then compare it to the comparable prices on other boats of similar size, age and condition.

Of course, any serious problems in the survey should lead to a corresponding drop in the price.

Generally, IMHO your offer should be about twice the difference from what you are really willing to pay for the boat... that way, if they meet you halfway, then you'll be paying what you think is the right price. Of course, this is not set in stone. If the boat has been on the market for a while, then I would drop the amount a bit...if the boat is a particularly popular, classic, or rare model—then you should probably adjust the offer upwards a bit. YMMV.
 
#9 ·
There are more variables than you think

You never know all the variables. Maybe the husband died, and the wife wants to be rid of it. What about the pristine boat in "like new" condition, whose owner is going through a divorce, and does not want the spouse to have the asset, no matter what it costs him? Maybe the owner has already bought another boat, and can't afford the yard bills for two. After looking around and getting a feel for what the kind of boat you're looking for should cost, make an offer. If it's rejected out of hand, it's too low, and you've learned something. If there's a counter-offer, maybe you're in the ballpark.
If it's accepted, you may have been able to get the boat for even less. In any case, any offer should be made subject to a survey. The survey will turn up something which can be used to bring the price down further or which can cause the deal to fall apart, according to what YOU want. Each boat is different and each owner is also different. It's a totally free market. Take advantage of it if you can, and don't get hung up on formulae that don't work.
 
#10 ·
Long before I started reading Sailnet I new about the need for a survey. Certainly good advice. But the survey follows the offer. And one can't trust a survey commissioned by the broker.

So how does one guess what a boat is worth? Saying to offer "what it's worth to me" doesn't help. I have bought a small power boat and several small sailboats over the years. Now I'm looking at a J-37c and I don't have a clue what a proper offer is. I offered .85 of the asking price but no luck

Any help here would be appreciated.
 
#12 ·
PaulK's points are pretty good too... there are situations where the boat will be sold for far less or far more than it is worth...

Each boat and sale is fairly unique...even if the boats are similar... Some owners are willing to sell the boat for less than they're asking...others have some deluded idea that their boat is worth more than the actual market value..and will refuse to budge at all.

You also don't say what kind of boat it is... hard to give you advice on a specific offer to make...if we have no idea what the boat is. There are many boats that are worth $114,000, many that are worth more, and many that are worth far less.
 
#13 ·
i looked at a J37 several years ago, nice shape in California. If I remember right hey were asking 89k. One day I saw it on Yachtworld for 54k sale pending. That is a pretty good mark down. It came back on the market a year later at 57k and sold in a few months. A J37c might be worth more and location will make a difference. I think I have seen this boat on Yachtworld, it's been for sale for years. I would figure out how good the equipment list is and what the boat needs. Major issues with any older boat are: engine, bottom blisters, soft decks, sail inventory and condition. Does it have the equipment that you want? You should check out the boat very closely yourself before you make an offer and make a list of the costs you would expect to get the boat to the way you will want it. You will end up knowing how much money you will have in the boat after the purchase and upgrades are complete. It takes a lot of objectivity to get an accurate number.

A survey won't lower the price unless there is something undisclosed or unseen, and you will need to fix those things anyway. Don't count on a survey to get a better deal.

Good luck, they look like they would be a fun boat to sail.
 
#14 ·
There's also the situation that the guy's wife says "Sell the boat." and he puts it on the market at five times what it's worth. He then gets to tell his wife "I'm trying to sell the boat, but no takers." J/Boats cruising versions are generally regarded as well-engineered and well-built. They sail well, and there are also not a lot of them. These factors tend to make them pricey, despite their apparent simplicity of design. The J/boat racers have been raced, usually hard, and though also well-built, will look more tired. There are more racer J/boats around. These factors tend to make them relatively less expensive. You pays your money and you makes your choices. If you like the 37c enough, increase your offer and see if you can't get a counter-offer from the seller. If you go up $5,000 and he only comes down $150, you'll see how much he wants to sell, and get the idea that the selling price is pretty firm. If you go up $2000 and he comes down $2000, you may expect to meet in the middle. It's a balancing act that depends upon how much you're willing to spend and how little he's willing to accept. I've seen boats that didn't sell because there was oil spattered from a well-lubricated driveshaft, and the owner wouldn't budge on his price, and others that went through, but that dropped their price by $5,0000 because of a rotted main bulkhead the seller wasn't aware of. You never know.
 
#15 ·
You need to figure out what your budget is and stay within it. Remember, you'll most likely need to to spend another big lump of money outfitting/fixing the boat to meet your needs. So if your budget is $145K, your max boat cost is probably around $140, or less if you are conservative.

The O'day we bought was one of the cleaner boats we saw that was close to what we could afford. We really liked the boats layout and it had a reputation for being a decent sailer from what we could learn, however it was priced above our comfort range. Based on other identical models on the market and the prices of other similar boats I felt the asking price was in the correct range so, we kept looking.

However the owner needed to sell and later dropped his asking price so, I made discounted offer deducting the full cost of all the items I assumed I'd have to fix/replace, the owner countered, and I made a final offer which was accepted. After the survey, some more "small" items came up and another few hundered dollars came off the purchase price to correct them. As it turns out, every one of the small items became the worst case scenario, so so far the fixes cost about 3 times the discount negotiated with the seller, and two of the problems have been deferred until winter pull out, so the final cost has yet to be determined. The learning point is to assume the worst case for fixes. ie: If a steaming light is burned out, assume you'll have to pull the mast, install new wire and a new fixture. If replacing the bulb fixes it, you're money ahead.

If I hadn't negotiated a big discount up front, I'd really be hurting, but even with the unanticipated repair costs, I'm pretty confident I'll be able to recoup most of my costs when we're ready to move up to a bigger/newer/more capable boat in a few years.
 
#16 ·
One should always assume the worst case scenario. I have never seen a case where it cost less to fix up a boat than someone had planned. Some things like a burned out light up the mast you can just say FIX IT. If the surveyor recomends a new shroud, you should figure on replacing all the rigging, but you can't expect the seller to pay for the whole job because a boat with new rigging is worth more than a boat with 10 year old rigging.
 
#17 ·
Formula for an offer?

I don't think that any formula will prove to be a universal success, especially those that are based on the asking price. There is nothing that controls the formulation of the asking price; 85% of a ridiculously high asking price is still "wrong". Likewise, there is nothing to control what the owner thinks the boat is truly worth. I once dealt with a guy who insisted that the proper way to calculate the asking price was to take the BUC value and then add on the full price of what he paid for the new VHF, GPS, head, sails, etc. he had installed over the years of his ownership. Nutty? Sure, but its a free country. Bottom line: the boat is worth whatever someone will pay for it. An offer of 85% of the asking price shouldn't (in a sane world) insult anyone. If the offer was rejected, you can be sure that one of two things is true: the boat is worth more and will eventually sell for more; or the owner was wrong to reject your offer because that is about what the boat is worth and no one else will offer more. In the first instance, you always have the option of upping your offer. In the second instance, you can check back in a month and if the boat is still for sale, repeat your offer, this time hoping that life has beat some sense into the owner in the interim. Good luck.
 
#18 ·
While, I'd agree with midlifesailor that you need to reserve a part of your budget for upgrades, re-fits, and such..but I think that $5000 on a $145,000 boat is a bit low. I would estimate that you're really going to spend about 10-15% of the boat's price on re-fitting, repairing and upgrading.
 
#19 ·
My spreadsheet, using my (guess) of .85 of 114000, has an offer of 97000. When I plug in survey costs, tax and tags, engine evaluation, insurance, mooring, a dodger, upgrading the electronics (the damn thing has a Loran), bottom paint, rod rig reheaded and a variety of small fixups, fresh charts, groceries and beer to bring her home, plus a fudge factor I'm in $41,400 in extra expenses. This is the minimum I can get by with. No new sails and other real goodies. At 138400 she's quite feasible. But the owner has demanded 107,500. At 149 shes simply not feasible.

Also she's been sitting on a mooring for 24 months for sale. The owner doesn't appear to be using her.

Is a neglected 17 year old boat really worth 107.5. I guess not to me or the marketplace.

I guess I'm dreaming. Again. I should set my sights smaller.
 
#20 ·
I have read Don Casey's book (memorized is more like it) about Inspecting the Aging boat. I have visited her three times, looked in every locker and cubbyhole. I have no illusions about her condition. I'm planning on doing the labor intensive work myself (bottom paint and deck reseal) and getting good pro's to do the skill stuff (rod reheading, etc).

All I have to do is get by the purchase stuff. Duh you're thinking.

Is 97000 a good offer for a neglected 17 year old J-37c. Ie .85 of asking?
 
#22 ·
I'd have to agree with GeneT, that offer sounds a bit high to me too... Especially if it needs a lot of work.
 
#24 ·
something isn't adding up

the owner doesn't want to sell it.

they are...
a)using it as a business tax write off
b)second home tax write off
c)second mortgage tax write off
d)asset depreciation management (tax write off)
e)he's an ass and doesn't really want to sell the boat.

(just kidding about the "ass" part)
 
#25 ·
Yes the owner has already rejected a $97k offer on a 114,000 asking. Twice, once last summer and again this spring. A yardie told me he was only out to her twice last year. He doesn't sail her, just stays aboard. The white bottom is actually green now.

You guys are right, something isn't adding up. 114,000 is a fair price for a J-37c given that there were only 7-8 built and they don't come on the market very often. Recently a J-37c sold here in the Chessie for 95 on an asking of 114 so I think my offer on this one is reasonable.

I am pushing this one fairly hard because it exactly fits what I want in a boat. The J-40 I asked about earlier this month was really too big and expensive for us. A J-35c or a J-110 would be a good choice too. Over the years I have looked at everything from Swan's and Hinckleys to Hunters and Catalina's. We spent a season with a timeshare on a J-110 and loved her, so that's why the interest in mid sized J's.

I'm thinking that the owner really doesn't want to sell her unless he can find a sucker who will pay his inflated price. Ie "not seriously for sale". It's not likely a tax deduction thing because the carrying costs of a boat far exceed the money saved on taxes.

Back to my original question re-worded. Is .85 of asking reasonable? Is 97k for a 17 year old 37' er reasonable.
 
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