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  #1  
Old 08-28-2001
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dbatjr is on a distinguished road
Pros and Cons of using a Broker

When looking at buying a new home, unless you attend an open house or find a for-sale-by-owner, it is difficult to get into any without using a broker.

How does it work when looking for a boat?

Does using a broker get you into more boats?

Who pays the commission?

Are there Buyers agents?

Any info is appreciated.

Thanks, Tom
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Old 08-28-2001
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Denr is an unknown quantity at this point
Pros and Cons of using a Broker

They can be very helpful and most of them will not bite. As in almost every capital item sold, the seller pays the commission. The buyers agent is called a surveyor, you pay for him or her. You don''t have to be frightened it''s alright.
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Old 08-28-2001
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dbatjr is on a distinguished road
Pros and Cons of using a Broker

Thanks Denr,

Helpful as usual.

Are are you the guy who bought a Sabre because it had a cool sounding name?

How''s that working out?

Tom
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Old 08-28-2001
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Denr is an unknown quantity at this point
Pros and Cons of using a Broker

With the exception of my first boat, I have changed the name of every boat I''ve owned. With the new vinyl lettering it works out quite well, thanks for asking.
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Old 08-28-2001
JeffH
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Pros and Cons of using a Broker

There are a lot of ways to buy a used boat. You can watch for ads on the internet (Sailnet Boat Search, SoundingsOnLine and YachtWorld being the three best), in local newspapers and in sailing magazines (Soundings being one of the best printed sources for listings).

Driving through boatyards looking for ''for sale'' signs also works quite well also. Checking bulletin boards and word of mouth also can work surprisingly well. I have bought boats almost all of these ways at one time or another.

Does using a broker get you into more boats?
Brokers do have a number of sources that civilians can''t get to. A good Broker is well worth the fees that the seller pays them. In the deals that I have used brokers they are able to act as negotiator and are often able to more clearly present a fair position to both sides. While I have gotten a few bargains on my own, the best boat buying deals in my life have had brokers involved in the process.

Who pays the commission?
The seller pays the commission.

Are there Buyers agents?
I assume you mean in the sense that the term is used in real estate. (i.e. Brokers who only work for buyers and have no listings of their own and who sometime work at a reduced commission (rebating a piece of their co-brokerage fee) or work on an hourly basis like a consultant. In Maryland these are actually called Buyer Brokers) There are a few brokers that hold themselves out to be Buyer Broker. Bernie at RogueWave Yachts considers himself to be a Buyers Broker. In yachts (because they are portable) there is less of a need for a dedicated Buyer Broker. I just completed a long and complicated search and purchase of a boat working with Pat Lane at Annapolis Yacht Sales. There is no doubt in my mind that no matter what Pat had called himself, I could not have had better representation as a buyer that Pat gave my deal.

A good broker really is enormously helpful. They do a lot of boat deals in a year. They understand the negotiations process and the legalities of selling boats. They are dialed into the market and can tell either side when they have unrealistic goals. There can be a lot of details that need to get worked out in a deal and a good Broker can be indispensible getting things lined up.

In the most recent boat buying deals it was the Broker who sold the idea that my offers were fair and proper and so got the prices to where they needed to be.

Good hunting
Jeff
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Old 08-28-2001
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dbatjr is on a distinguished road
Pros and Cons of using a Broker

Thanks Jeff,

I appreciate the time you spend answering all the questions that you do on this board.

I hope for your sake you''re not a two-fingered typist.

What are your thoughts on an early 80''s Sabre 28 for daysailing and occaisional weekends on Long Island sound? It would be my first boat over 20 feet. I''ll be sailing primarily with my wife and 3 young kids.

Tom
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Old 08-28-2001
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Pros and Cons of using a Broker

You don''t want a buyers broker for a small easy to find boat like that. But if you get involved with one it''s no big deal either.

While Sabre''s in general are OK boats the 28 is too small. It is kind of cute and yachty but there are many boats out there in the 30'' range that are not expensive, a little bigger than the Sabre 28 and which sail a lot better. The Sabre 28 is short on sail area which is needed for LIS.

Just some boats in the same price range that I like better are the Pearson 30, C&C 30 and the Tartan 30. Don''t think that a smaller boat is easier to handle. The quicker motion of the small boats makes them less safe too.

If you have access to all the specs of all the boats you are intersted in fine. So then you can compare sail area/displacement ratios, length displacement ratios etc. If this is too much bother then just find the site for PHRF. PHRF is the sailboat handicap system for racing. The smaller the number the faster the boat. The PHRF of the Sabre 28 is 198 which puts in into the slow catagory. Our last boat, a C&C 30 is a 174 and our present boat a 35'' is rated at 129. There is a big difference between a boat rated around 200 and a 129 boat.

Some broker will tell you "thats a good boat" translation "I stand to make a quick commmission on that one"

I have never needed a broker. It''s easier than buying a used car as the buyer has the surveyor to help him.

There are many other boats besides the few I mention. Those are 3 good ones however that are not expensive.
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Old 08-29-2001
JeffH
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Pros and Cons of using a Broker

I have always liked the Sabre 28''s and 28 footers in general. 28 feet is big enough to have a fair amount of seaworthiness and deal with anything that would normally come at you and yet small enough to be handy to sail short handed (as in two adults trying to keep an eye on the boat and an eye on 3 young kids.

The Sabres are a little better built than many of the higher production boats of their size and offer pretty reasonable performance on for a boat of that era(performance should be pretty comparable to a Catalina 27 but the Sabre is a much better built boat). Mike is right that these are not great light air boats but they are not terrible either.

A couple feet of addition length certainly would make a significant difference in performance and comfort. If you did go to 30 feet the Tartan 30 has always been a favorite of mine. The Pearson 30 is another very nice sailing boat. I have never been a fan of the C&C 30 but prefer the somewhat faster and better proportioned C&C 29.

Obviously, as with any 20 year old boat a good servey is crucial.

Good luck
Regards
Jeff
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Old 09-08-2001
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Pros and Cons of using a Broker

DO NOT ask a broker to recommend a surveyor. We made that mistake and our bottom surveyed good. That was not the case. The bottom was not only covered with huge blisters but is delaminating. Very expensive lesson. We have consulted two lawyers and it looks like we have little recourse except that we have learned a very expensive lesson. It seems that most surveyors are uninsured and that they incorporate and leave very little money in the coffer. Beware!!! Sincerly, NL3114
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