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  #21  
Old 06-07-2011
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Not to complicate the discussion I have to repair my encapsulated bolted on lead keel. Can anyone explain this version of "encapsulated" and "bolted" and how it's constructed. See photo
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  #22  
Old 06-07-2011
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Probably would have been better to start your own new thread and not revive a ten year old thread.

That said, you have a real question that deserves an answer. Most keels today are bolted on. I'm guessing you have some sort of a hybrid. Assume you can see keel bolts in the bilge? If so, the added material may be just to to increase the thickness of the foil. Since the ballast is lead, you don't have the issue of expansion like you do with cast iron. Hard to do much more the guess based on one photo and little other information.
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  #23  
Old 06-07-2011
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Mike.. welcome to Sail net!. This thread your on is quite old 2002. Hopefully others will see the horror of your photo which is quite graphic! Oh my Gawd! How did it happen?

What make/year boat is it? It appears to be lead. The filler and glass seem to be laminated away from the lead too. Seeing that photo makes me start thinking of lots of epoxy resin, Big bars of steel and threaded rods to draw it all back together and re-bond to the core. Are the stringers shoe and bolts compromised also?
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Last edited by deniseO30; 06-07-2011 at 10:19 AM.
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  #24  
Old 06-07-2011
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The picture is a little hard to see in any detail, but it looks like an encapsulated keel which has mix of concrete and steel as ballast. The steel bars/bolts look like they were there for reinforcing and to pick up the ballast after it was cast, (concrete ballast was often cast in a separate mold) and put it in the boat. In other words, this is not a bolt on keel, even if it has bolts.

If that is the case, I would suggest that it may not economically feasible to repair this. A proper repair would consist of removing all of the ballast. Remove the damaged portion (or more properly all) of the keel encapsulation envelope. Construct a new encapsulation envelope using epoxy and glass such that ut re-establishes the connection between the hull and the envelope. Build a mold and cast new ballast. Install that ballast so that it is properly bonded to the encapsulation envelope. Build a new structural membrane above the ballast. Construct new transverse frames, or build new partial transverse frames which tie into the existing transverse frames. Reconstruct the longitudinal frames if they are damaged, and reconstruct the interior. Fair the exterior of the encapsulation envelope. Prime and paint it.

In reality, this is a very expensive process. On an older boat, it would cost more than the boat would ever be worth, and frankly, the boat with this damage would never be worth as much as a boat which had not sustained this damage since a repaired boat is considered to be worth less than one which had never been damaged, no matter how good the repair turned out.

Respectfully,
Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 06-07-2011 at 11:12 AM.
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  #25  
Old 06-07-2011
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Yes SS bolts in the bilge. Filler material dense pinkish but featherweight like an HD foam. Abbott Boats lost in fire a few years back. They were also known as Soling builder. Does appear to be a hybrid keel. Considering polyurethane foam for filler/backer then epoxy and glass or just glass if its strong enough
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  #26  
Old 06-08-2011
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Then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post

So, having owned a Pearson Vanguard that had an encapulated keel that hit a rock at not a terribly high speed and had the encapulation readily crush, driving the aft end of the ballast through the comparatively weak membrane above the ballast and dislocating the water tank. And after trying fruitlessly to get a decent repair and never being able to get a bond between the ballast and the encapsulation shell, I can readily assure you that a lot worse can happen than,"The worst that can happen to a internally ballasted boat is that a little water gets into the ballast area." You can end up with a boat that cannot be repaired.

Jeff
What do you do with a boat that cannot be repaired? Do you end up having to pay to have it disposed of somewhere? Tow it offshore and sink it? Any kind of an insurance claim?
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  #27  
Old 06-08-2011
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From the limited amount of information in the photo ( no MFG info, no boat info ) I'd suggest contacting the original MFG and ask them how much a complete replacement keel shipped to your yard will cost.


Quadruple that figure and you will have a ballpark idea of the cost of repairs.


-------------

I have to strongly disagree with the poster who presented the case that a encapsulated keel is weaker or cheaper or slower than a solid lead keel.

the keel bolts are the same ( or should be ) with a solid lead or encapsulated keel.

The encapsulated keel will tend to have a more refined surface finish than solid lead, unless the solid lead is obsessively faired every couple of years.

The encapsulated keel is much more difficult and labor intensive to build than a solid lead keel. A solid lead keel is just cast and then bolted on. The encapsulated keel is a finished composite part.

I have no idea how the poster imagines it is difficult to create a well crafted laminate in the encapsulated keel, typically they are 2 part molds ( similar to rudders ) that are laminated before being joined.

In my experience encapsulated keels are. Far superior system than a cast solid keel
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  #28  
Old 06-09-2011
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Based on your comment that pink material is very light, and assuming a careful inspection reveals no other structural damage, I would proceed as you suggest. Some glass cloth will be necessary to secure the foam to the keel. Epoxy is more expensive than polyester resin, but stronger and bonds much better. That would be my choice.
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  #29  
Old 06-09-2011
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Jim,

highly likely his structural grid is damaged after absorbing such an impact. I am going to speculate that there are going to be some cracks at the trailing edge of the keel - hull interface.

Agreed he could just cut away the damaged and water soaked jacket around the lead, but how is he going to inspect the grid ?
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  #30  
Old 06-10-2011
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Don't disagree WDShock. Hence my caveat about a careful inspection. We have no information about how this happened. With just foam with glass cover, it may have been caused by a relatively minor impact that wouldn't cause structrual damage at the lead keel attacement. And the soft foam could act as an energy absorber, deforming and not tranferring the load into the keel structure. Again, all speculation based on minimal information.
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