MacGregor 26 vs. ?

[JomsViking]

Ferry in Solent yacht rescue

Call me elitist, but I like a ship that right itself after a knockdown (and probably one that does not get's knocked down in bening conditions

[CaptKermie]

Originally Posted by JomsViking

Ferry in Solent yacht rescue

Call me elitist, but I like a ship that right itself after a knockdown (and probably one that does not get's knocked down in bening (Sp?) conditions

The MacGregor is self righting and will right itself after a knock down, and it has positive flotation meaning that even in the event of a totally flooded cabin it will not sink to the bottom like traditional sailboats but instead will remain afloat with the deck above the water for survivors to sit on.
It will not suffer a knock down under benign conditions.

[JomsViking]

So the Isle of Wight incident did not take place?

I'm not trying to bash the MacGregor, just trying to indicate that it should not be sold as a sea boat, but as in inland lake / coastal "in fair weather" cruiser, which the CE class C rating it's been given here in EU-land indicate it is? For those purposes I believe it is a great boat?
But I can still buy a used IF or MarieHolm or Vega waaaaaay cheaper than a 26

[CaptKermie]

In North America it is advertised and sold as just that - an inland lake or protected coastal water hybrid powersailer. This is clearly printed in the brochure. It is not advertised as an off shore blue water boat and I am not aware of any owners that would use it that way. 'Fair Weather Cruiser' suits me just fine because that is the kind of sailor I am. It is a great boat for its' intended purposes.
I do not have a clear understanding of the EU CE classifications, perhaps it is just some little hurdle that has to be circumvented in order to import the boat into EU but does not neccessarily or in reality make the Mac a bonafide class C.

[MSN2Travelers]

Originally Posted by JomsViking

Ferry in Solent yacht rescue

Call me elitist, but I like a ship that right itself after a knockdown (and probably one that does not get's knocked down in bening conditions

It would help everybody if you researched the rest of the story before you aire out your elitist attitude in public.

This is a classic "I never wear seatbelts when driving to the corner store" story.

1) push away from the dock without filling the water ballast because I'm just going to motor across to a different yard.
2) throw a dinghy on the foredeck and don't lash it down.
3) gust of wind lifts the dinghy up against the mast, wedges it against the mast and the improvised "sail" knocks the boat down due to lack of ballast.

This is a testimate to a stupid skipper, not a fragil sailboat getting knocked down in benign conditions. This is a great boat when used in the manner and conditions it was designed for.

If you had done further research, you would have found additional pictures that show the boat floating high `n dry (mostly) with the skipper standing up on the pulpit rail waiting to be rescued.

How long will your boat float while laying on its side?

[JomsViking]

High and dry is the key here. It was towed in the capsized position, and did not right until the tide went out from what I've read. But I agree that it seems like a stupid skipper.
That's why I was saying that it was probably a good boat for lake/limited coastal. Í do think though, that it is a problem that the ballast does NOT automatically fill, as you're stating above that the boat is inherently unsafe without the water ballast (if not, the skipper would not be stupid)

My boat? In a knockdown at a 90 degree angle, it would float infinitely, as I do not get water intrusion at that point - further over I don't know, but the point is that it wont stay there.
Again I was NOT trying to bash MacGregors, but they are being marketed and sold here as a sea-going boat, which scares me.
AND - as I've said before - You can get a used IF for one fifth (or even less) of a MacGregor, and that would be safer and - to me - a better choice.
As for airing an elitist attitude, why oh why do you MacGregor owners use that against everyone stating their thinking? I've listened to tons of negative stuff about people with a rag and a stick, as well as being told that it is idiotic to sail an IOR design, and that I have a death wish because I singlehand - but I don't call the people I disagree with "elitist".
I really hope that we can be friends, and agree to disagree on this topic?

Respectfully
-Joms

Originally Posted by MSN2Travelers

It would help everybody if you researched the rest of the story before you aire out your elitist attitude in public.

This is a classic "I never wear seatbelts when driving to the corner store" story.

1) push away from the dock without filling the water ballast because I'm just going to motor across to a different yard.
2) throw a dinghy on the foredeck and don't lash it down.
3) gust of wind lifts the dinghy up against the mast, wedges it against the mast and the improvised "sail" knocks the boat down due to lack of ballast.

This is a testimate to a stupid skipper, not a fragil sailboat getting knocked down in benign conditions. This is a great boat when used in the manner and conditions it was designed for.

If you had done further research, you would have found additional pictures that show the boat floating high `n dry (mostly) with the skipper standing up on the pulpit rail waiting to be rescued.

How long will your boat float while laying on its side?

[MSN2Travelers]

Originally Posted by JomsViking

High and dry is the key here. It was towed in the capsized position, and did not right until the tide went out from what I've read. But I agree that it seems like a stupid skipper.
That's why I was saying that it was probably a good boat for lake/limited coastal. Í do think though, that it is a problem that the ballast does NOT automatically fill, as you're stating above that the boat is inherently unsafe without the water ballast (if not, the skipper would not be stupid)

My boat? In a knockdown at a 90 degree angle, it would float infinitely, as I do not get water intrusion at that point - further over I don't know, but the point is that it wont stay there.
Again I was NOT trying to bash MacGregors, but they are being marketed and sold here as a sea-going boat, which scares me.
AND - as I've said before - You can get a used IF for one fifth (or even less) of a MacGregor, and that would be safer and - to me - a better choice.
As for airing an elitist attitude, why oh why do you MacGregor owners use that against everyone stating their thinking? I've listened to tons of negative stuff about people with a rag and a stick, as well as being told that it is idiotic to sail an IOR design, and that I have a death wish because I singlehand - but I don't call the people I disagree with "elitist".I really hope that we can be friends, and agree to disagree on this topic?

Respectfully
-Joms

OK Joms ...

I generally try to stay out of the MacGregor wars that seem to appear on this board more than anywhere else. Your initial post, along with your self-ascribed label of "elitist" sucked me in.

Mac owners are often the target of scorn from people that know very little about the design, have never owned one or spent any time on one. I respect everybody that offers an informed opinion. I'm sick `n tired of Mac bashers that really don't know what they are talking about.

For what its worth: The Mac 26X & 26M models are hybrid powersailors. They are designed to fill a niche market and sell quite well. They are both an OK sailboats and an OK powerboat. Most owners like to keep the ballast empty while the boat is being used as a powerboat and the water ballast is supposed to be full while sailing. The designer/builder states that the ballast must be filled when under sail.

I live in central Wisconsin and have immediate access to scores of inland lakes that are fun to sail on. I have ready access to Lake Michigan and find I spend more time on the big lake than anywhere else lately. The Mac 26M was an ideal boat for my family when we bought it and has been for a number of years. I also sail solo more often than with crew aboard. (I'm retired and my wife `n sailing buddies are not.)

I also sail on a Catalina 30 and race on a Pearson Flyer. I know what my Mac lacks as a sailboat but I also know how to get the most out of her.

Hey, I would be happy to agree to disagree on this topic. Just try to know what is being talked about when you arrive at the discussion.

As a footnote to the original knockdown story ... it was also reported that the owner was planning on selling the boat and had already cancelled the insurance coverage. So was this an incident where a poor boat design was the primary factor in being knocked down or was this a really unlucky (stupid) guy that just happened to be on a boat when he auditioned for the Darwin awards.

Later friend ... My wife wants to start cruising the Great Lakes and says we need a bigger boat, one that doesn't heel as much and has a hot water shower. You know, one of those "real" sailboats that has a full kitchen in it and a grill on the back rail.

[JomsViking]

Paul,
Someone, somewhere within this thread called me an elitist, hence my using it again.
So the facts (as we know them now - and thanks for clearing this up with me).
1. The Mac was being motored in calm conditions
2. No water ballast - so far the owner was operating within design limits.
3. A dinghy was thrown from the foredeck, and got stuck in the standing rigging - representing, like 4 square meters, max, of additional windage?
4. The boat capsized, and did not right itself until touching ground.

IMHO the water ballast MUST fill positively immediately after the boat is in the water, as the above scenario should never ever be allowed to happen, even if the skipper forgot to lash the dinghy down - he does not seem to be an idiot, as he apparently only forgot that?

I'm NOT trying to scorn people, but the different videos and sales collateral showing a Mac in heavy weather, scares the sh.t out of me, as I've had students from the sailing school come back with the impression that they could safely sail these boats in all weather, as we do with 24' folkboats - So all I'm trying to do is learn enough to be able to help these people. My advice from what I've read and learned sofar is clear.

Good luck on the bigger boat, and fair winds

BTW I do not have hot water nor a grill, and sailed for many years without and engine

Originally Posted by MSN2Travelers

OK Joms ...

I generally try to stay out of the MacGregor wars that seem to appear on this board more than anywhere else. Your initial post, along with your self-ascribed label of "elitist" sucked me in.

Mac owners are often the target of scorn from people that know very little about the design, have never owned one or spent any time on one. I respect everybody that offers an informed opinion. I'm sick `n tired of Mac bashers that really don't know what they are talking about.

For what its worth: The Mac 26X & 26M models are hybrid powersailors. They are designed to fill a niche market and sell quite well. They are both an OK sailboats and an OK powerboat. Most owners like to keep the ballast empty while the boat is being used as a powerboat and the water ballast is supposed to be full while sailing. The designer/builder states that the ballast must be filled when under sail.

I live in central Wisconsin and have immediate access to scores of inland lakes that are fun to sail on. I have ready access to Lake Michigan and find I spend more time on the big lake than anywhere else lately. The Mac 26M was an ideal boat for my family when we bought it and has been for a number of years. I also sail solo more often than with crew aboard. (I'm retired and my wife `n sailing buddies are not.)

I also sail on a Catalina 30 and race on a Pearson Flyer. I know what my Mac lacks as a sailboat but I also know how to get the most out of her.

Hey, I would be happy to agree to disagree on this topic. Just try to know what is being talked about when you arrive at the discussion.

As a footnote to the original knockdown story ... it was also reported that the owner was planning on selling the boat and had already cancelled the insurance coverage. So was this an incident where a poor boat design was the primary factor in being knocked down or was this a really unlucky (stupid) guy that just happened to be on a boat when he auditioned for the Darwin awards.

Later friend ... My wife wants to start cruising the Great Lakes and says we need a bigger boat, one that doesn't heel as much and has a hot water shower. You know, one of those "real" sailboats that has a full kitchen in it and a grill on the back rail.

[itatae]

As an owner of a Macgregor 26C who has sailed it the length of the chesapeake bay, across Lake Erie, and throughout the florida keys, I can say something about this version of the boat. I have raced it against water balasted and non waterballasted Catalinas and Hunters and it was clearly faster when compared to cruising boats of similar size. It cant catch a J24 but I wouldnt enjoy trailering or sleeping on one of those boats either.

Traditional boat owners who complain about the macgregors are stuck within 20 miles of their dock. A trailer sailer cruises down the highway at 60 mph. You launch it where you want to. Also with no keel, the macgregor anchors in shallow water and can be beached. You never need to worry about dragging anchors or running aground. Unlike most trailersailers, you can sit up inside the boat comfortably and it is 8 feet wide and about 2200 pounds so you dont have to worry about getting a ticket trailering the boat.

I have it down to a system. I can launch the boat in about 10-12 minutes. The rigging is light because compared to similar sized boats it is lighter and the sail area is smaller. This light rigging is wonderful. I can rig and sail the boat easily singlehandedly - this includes putting up the mast - by hand - you dont need a crank. It is easier that the 17' mobjack I used to own.

I have had this boat in lake erie in pounding weather where many others would fear to go. It wasnt comfortable but I wasnt worried about the rigging. I kept up with a full keeled 27 footer with a reefed main and working jib. No problems, and we were beating up 7 foot waves. It wasnt that comfortable, but the people in the full keeled boat werent comfortable either.

So to the people who insist on heavy rigging and heavy keels, more power to you. but enjoy your 20 mile radius. Once a year maybe you can go farther when you get a week off. But if you like to really explore with your boat then get a macgregor. You can sail without worrying about grounding, you can beach the boat so you dont need a dinghy, and you can rig the boat by yourself so you arent swearing and sweating for an hour before you launch. And if you get the nonpower sailer version like mine, you can race it against far more expensive yachts of similar size and often win.

[Mark F]

I'm interested how a sailboat without a keel can sail to weather. What's the highest angle can you sail to windward?