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Can Age Trump Design?

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#1 · (Edited)
Can Age Trump Design? Also, as one moves forward in time, are there fewer and fewer blue water boats to choose from?

In a year or two, we're considering a career break and some ocean cruising. We’d have two kids with us, but we’ve heard that others have survived this.

At the moment, we like boats like the Valiant 40, the Pearson 424 and the Pacific Seacraft 37. The Tartan 37 isn’t bad, either, as well as other boats in the 37 to 42 foot range. We’ve been looking in the “around $100k” range in price, and thinking we’d need a year or two to improve and cruise the boat locally with some offshore hops to Puget Sound.

One common thing is that most of the boats we’ve considered have fallen into the late seventies, early eighties age range. We already own a small ’67 and ’73 sailboat, so we know what it’s like to own and maintain an older boat—we really like both of them. However, for an extended cruise, I’m concerned about age for a lot of reasons:

1) Hull blistering, even on hulls that were epoxy coated.
2) Hull weakening, even on non-blister older hulls.
3) General weakening of joints and systems from age.
4) Serious system rebuilds in the first 1-2 years of ownership, “with surprises.”
5) Resale value later, especially if we own for a decade. (A ’79 boat for sale in 2017?)
6) More issues with handling, due to older hardware or control designs.

We've done some short, fair weather cruising on newer production boats, and I liked the handling and easy sail management. (Even if I wouldn’t own one for a long cruise.) Additionally, I’ve heard too many stories lately about older cruising boats being restored for years, but in the end the owners don’t cruise because they waited too long. I’d be interested in a “fast track” if the boat was good enough to safely get going in a few months instead of years.

So, I plugged some numbers into Yachtworld. Type of sailboat: cruiser. Age range: 1988 to 2000. Price range: $90k to $175k (thinking of a max purchase price of $150k). Length: 37 to 42 feet. Country: US and Canada. Result: 292 hits.

Unfortunately, my biases toss out the most common hits: Beneteau, Catalina, Hunter, Bavaria, and Jenneaus (but I heard that some of the Jenneaus may be appropriate).

Of the less common hits, there are more I toss out: C&Cs (cored hulls) Freedom Yachts, Tayanas, Morgans, Endeavors, Irwins.

There is only one or two Cabo Ricos, Calibers, Bristols, and Moodys, and my sense is that having only one or two means that finding a decent one could take time.

There are zero Valiants or Pearsons or Pacific Seacrafts from this age and price range. If I change the criteria to racer/cruiser, there are fewer but similar results.

What’s left are Island Packets and Sabres. I know the Sabres are more performance-oriented (too much for a family of four?). I’ve also been reading about Island Packets. Obviously, there’s strong arguments made for and against them (especially on design points), but there are also relatively passionate defenses of them by owners. The Practical Sailor review I have of the 350 (I’d be considering an IP 38) is surprisingly positive (compared to some online posts about IPs). It acknowledges issues with light winds and windward capability, but finds the boats well made and stable platforms. The shoal draft seems less than perfect for ocean crossings, but that seems to be commonly done with IPs.

Anyway, there’s always compromises to be made. If I only consider the factors above, I wonder if having a 1990 IP 38 with around 1000 hours on the engine and generally good condition systems wouldn’t be a wise investment when considering the age issues above. (Vs. a “blister period” Valiant 40 or 27 year-old Pearson 424.) There is also fair range of them to consider, given their popularity.

Just ideas—but it seems that as one moves forward in time, there are fewer cruising sailboats to choose from unless one has a serious war chest of funds. There's lots of older sailboats to be had in the price range, some with excellent system rebuilds, but again there are always compromises and risks.


Jim H
 
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#2 ·
Loosen your search criteria a little. For example, allow 'all sail' instead of just 'cruisers'. There are 4 Pacific Seacrafts and 34 Pearsons on Yachtworld that fit your other restrictions. You might want to loosen your other criteria too, just to see more boats. But really you need a broker (and that's not me).
 
#3 ·
Also, don't forget, when you're looking at double-enders, you're losing a lot of storage aft. Just for a few thoughts...Peterson 44, Cal 39. Also, here's a link that might prove helpful (at the end there is a list of boats)
http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html
 
#4 · (Edited)
Jim,

I think once a boat gets over 10 years, its all a question of maintenance and refits, if you start with a quality boat. The good thing is that the quality boat is most likely to have owners who do maintain them properly ($$$). Sabre is a quality boat, and I'd buy one for my type of use in a sec, but I don't think they are designed for offshore cruising, for example lacking carrying capacity. I consider the IPs too slow for use as a sailboat (this comment should get some action...) but I put more of a premium on sailing performance than others may chose to.
For your needs I'd recommend the Bristol 38.8. Yachtworld has seven on the East Coast. Pay a premium for one with newer systems. Here's an example - check the equipment list http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&currencyid=100&boat_id=1474578&checked_boats=1474578&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResults.jsp%3Fsm%3D3%26toLength%3D38%26cit%3Dtrue%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26fromLength%3D38%26man%3Dbristol%26slim%3Dquick&searchtype=
 
#5 ·
JimHawkins said:
Loosen your search criteria a little. For example, allow 'all sail' instead of just 'cruisers'. There are 4 Pacific Seacrafts and 34 Pearsons on Yachtworld that fit your other restrictions. You might want to loosen your other criteria too, just to see more boats. But really you need a broker (and that's not me).
Thanks, Jim

You're correct that some Pacific Seacraft 37s will come up will "All Sail" selected. I'll revise my searches to that setting, and maybe move the age range up as well (2000-2006).

What funny to me is that the "players" change when you are looking at boats that are 1990-2005. Caliber is another one I don't know much about yet.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Jim..interesting post. Despite the disparagers...I like the IP38 and think it would be a reasonable choice for you...certainly built well enough to head down the coast and beyond. I DON'T like the Valiant or PS or Tayana37 in your situation as I think you give up too much room to the canoe stern...though they are all fine boats for a couple. Check out the Peterson44 or the Whitby & Brewer 42 unless you really don't like CC boats...they are all seaworthy and the extra privacy and room below will be appreciated on a cruise and they should be in your price range. The Caliber 40 would be an excellent choice but is about double your price range. The smaller Calibers were not designed as long range cruisers.
 
#7 · (Edited)
PBzeer said:
Also, don't forget, when you're looking at double-enders, you're losing a lot of storage aft. Just for a few thoughts...Peterson 44, Cal 39. Also, here's a link that might prove helpful (at the end there is a list of boats)
http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html
I did some looking at the Peterson 44s lately online, and they are very attractive. They would be in the late 70s to early 80s range again, which might be fine. My first reaction was that a 44' boat would be more to handle and maintain, and my preference would be for something that both my wife and I could handle. I also get a little concerned about sails and parts costs as size increases.

The Mahina link is excellent, and I've been there several times. What's funny, though, is that I think most of us skip his paragraphs and go right to the boat list. If you read his paragraphs about why one might select a new production boat, John's tone is almost disdainful of the idea that "buying used is the only way to go." He points out several drawbacks, including resale and expensive ongoing repairs, that I've been thinking of. In terms of time and money, he suggests that there's a false economy to buying an older boat. He also acknowledges "real shortage of quality ocean-cruising boats in the 3-10 year old range" that I've been trying to quantify with Yachtworld searches.

In Daniel Spurr's book, "Your First Sailboat..." he actually graphs out the optimum used boat (in terms of post depreciation, but decent sails, rigging and engine), and his chart shows boats in the 4-8 year old range of being worthwhile. For a year I've stared at this chart and wondered what he was talking about, because in my searches I'd be lucky to see a 1982 boat (24 years old). Some of the 1970s boats I've seen have been completely original, with pretty much zero upgrades since they were new. It also seems that most of the boats discussed here and on the older boards are normally older.

Anyway, an older boat may still be the way to go, but I'm going to try and refocus and be open-minded for awhile about newer boats as well-- at least to know what is there and not there, and how much it would cost. A Pacific Seacraft 34 might be tight, for example, but new they list for about $212,000 (sans sails, etc.) and a 2000 model might show up for around $175,000 asking price. A 2001 Island Packet 350 would be in a similar price range.

So, forgive me for thinking aloud. Basically, I'm working on learning more about cruising boats that are newer than six years old, just to decide for myself about the "economy" of older vs. newer.

If John Neal is correct, for example, having more money in the boat may not be too risky if more of it could be recovered at resale. I don't like "paying for a name," but it can have benefits when it's time to sell.

Thanks again,

Jim H
 
#8 · (Edited)
sailingfool said:
Jim,

I think once a boat gets over 10 years, its all a question of maintenance and refits, if you start with a quality boat...
I consider the IPs too slow for use as a sailboat (this comment should get some action...) but I put more of a premium on sailing performance than others may chose to.
SF, thanks for the link to the Bristol.

I think you might be right about boats over 10 years of age. As noted in my post above, Daniel Spurr also indicated that after 10 years you can't rely on the sails, rigging, and engine being in good shape simply because of youth. Evaluating the quality of maintenance and refits becomes cruicial, and I've very happy to have ever receipt for all the work done on my '73 sailboat.

As for IPs, keep spreading that "too slow for anything" thought. It might make it easier for me to own one. :) I'm not defending IPs, but the reviews and the general satisfaction (and ongoing purchases) of owners makes me think the drawbacks are exaggerated. Even John Neal on the Mahina page notes that they are "Roomy & comfortable with good tankage & storage but some odd features. Improving every year. Good value." If they were as bad as some suggest, I don't think they'd be on his list at all. I'm keeping an open mind, for now.

As for the Bristol, I have a slight bias against centerboard boats. Here on the left coast, they seem pretty rare, and I was surprised that 2 of the 3 Tartan 37s I've come across here have had the fixed, deep keel instead of a centerboard. It just seems that over time the centerboard is going to take extra effort and repairs, and even Tigger the Tartan 37 that circumnavigated eventually glassed theirs in the up position to be done with it. I'm not sure the benefits would be worth the hassle, especially as the system ages.

Thanks!

Jim H
 
#9 ·
camaraderie said:
Despite the disparagers...I like the IP38 and think it would be a reasonable choice for you...certainly built well enough to head down the coast and beyond. I DON'T like the Valiant or PS or Tayana37 in your situation as I think you give up too much room to the canoe stern...though they are all fine boats for a couple. Check out the Peterson44 or the Whitby & Brewer 42 unless you really don't like CC boats..The Caliber 40 would be an excellent choice but is about double your price range.
Camaraderie,

Great comments. I think you're right on the mark about most of the boats listed. Tayana 37s are out for us, and both the Valiants and PS series may have space issues as you noted.

I read and really enjoyed the recent thread about Whitby and Brewer 42s and 12.8s, but the Whitby sounds like it might be a bit rough and I'd still like to avoid a centerboard boat. Also, I've been on a couple of CC boats recently and my preference still leans toward an aft cockpit-- I don't see us using the aft cabin for daytime lounging, but the main cabin appears shortened because of the cockpit and aft cabin.

The Caliber 40 LRC is a boat I know almost nothing about (since they weren't popular in 1978), but I'm looking into. I noticed that a 2001-2002 models appear in the $230-250k range, which might be financially impossible but still worth a review. Sometimes I can work out interesting solutions to problems... (othertimes, complete failure!).

Jim H
 
#11 ·
Jim H said:
SF, thanks for the link to the Bristol.
As for IPs, keep spreading that "too slow for anything" thought. It might make it easier for me to own one. :) I'm not defending IPs, but the reviews and the general satisfaction (and ongoing purchases) of owners makes me think the drawbacks are exaggerated. ...
Jim H
And Hunter owners love their Hunters. I guess its all a question of perspective, or lack thereof...

Good luck.
 
#12 ·
The only new stuff that really impresses me (that I have seen so far) is from ETAP.
http://www.etapyachting.com/
Check out their link of building unsinkable yachts. Rather reassuring....if you can afford one.
 
#13 ·
This is a good topic, I'm sorta in the same boat, I have a smaller, 40 year old boat and I love the hell out of it, but we are looking for a larger boat for extended adventures, the thing I like about older boats is the character and quility of workmanship that you don't find in boats these days ( this is my opinion ), if ya do you are paying a permium for it, a hugh permium; Personally I would rather find a 40-50 year old boat for 100-200 thousand and refit it, than buy a newer clorox bottle for 400,000 or more.

As far as time spent, that's kinda relative to passion and moola
 
#14 ·
That's right John. I really like them a lot and think that they represent one of the few "affordable" blue water cruisers out there of recent vintage. The boat is comfortable, sails well, has exceptional tankage and a well designed fuel system. The 47CC is an excellent boat as well and a similar value.
 
#15 ·
Cored hulls, like those on the C&C's aren't necessarily a dealbreaker. If the hull is done properly, then the cored hull isn't necessarily a problem.

Also, just curious as to why you toss out Tayana, Morgan, Freedoms and that group?

BTW IMHO, you should reserve about 15-20% of your purchase budget for refitting, repairing and upgrading what ever boat you end up buying.
 
#16 ·
I am amused at the IP bashing on this site. I really think it is just jealousy judging by the posters. The are solidly built offshore boats that hold their values. I have sailed them extensively and I can tell you that they are fantastic boats. Roomy on the inside without being too much like an RV, (Catalina, Hunter, etc.). They don't cut corners on the important stuff like hardward, fittings, rigging. They sail well in heavy - light winds. I think if you can swing one financially they are worth considering.

As for older boats. I love them. I really enjoy finding that gem that needs a complete refit and bringing it back. This is the third boat that I have refit and by far it is my most ambitious project. But it gives you something to think about rather than work and it is exciting seeing the boat come back to life. I would recommend this route to anyone who has the time, skill and patience.
 
#17 ·
I recently purchased a 94 Caliber 40.. and am very happy with it. I had been focused on other boats and particularly a 40 Passport but when I started noticing the Calibers and then everything fell into place.. Modified full keel, supported rudder, quality equipment, Very well ventilated - 21 opening ports!, No Teak decks, Manufacture still around. Sails very well.

The Caliber 38 is very much the same as the 40 except it does not have a sugar scoop so you may find something that fits your budget..
 
#18 ·
Surfesq said:
I am amused at the IP bashing on this site. I really think it is just jealousy judging by the posters. The are solidly built offshore boats that hold their values. They sail well in heavy - light winds. I think if you can swing one financially they are worth considering.

As for older boats. I love them. I really enjoy finding that gem that needs a complete refit and bringing it back.
I've been on new IPs, and the quality appeared good. Both my wife and I hope to see the interior of an IP 38 next year (89-91), since the idea of a forward pullman, and two heads, isn't necessarily a bad idea for four aboard. For sailing on the Columbia River, the cutter rig would be less than great (we sometimes tack every 10-15 mintues for hours on end), so it would be more of an "exit boat" than a daysailor or short-trip craft for us.

BTW, I did noticed that the email list for IPs here at sailnet has some pretty honest and supportive exchanges about IPs: http://list.sailnet.net/read/?forum=islandpacket

I agree with you about older boats as well-- we just got back from an excellent weekend cruise on our '73 27 footer. Hours of light air sailing, while others motored. I did discover that I have a water leak at the pump, and I need to replace or rebuild the original mechanical water pump, and I haven't rebedded all the deck hardware yet... The stuffing box is being tough to adjust, the AC wiring needs to be replaced... The list goes on, just like on any boat over 10 years old, but I also need to raise and enjoy the kids and not just work on boats (as fun as that may be).

Jim H
 
#19 ·
TAK said:

The Caliber 38 is very much the same as the 40 except it does not have a sugar scoop so you may find something that fits your budget..


Thanks for the tip-- I have been researching the Calibers. I have the Practical Sailor review of the 40 LRC, but I haven't got to read it yet. I did read a Cruising World review of one of the new larger models, and they seemed pretty impressed with the tankage system. Sounds like the design is almost like a double-bottom to the boat, and reduces the number of thru-hulls.

You're right that costs are high, though. A 38 would be closer to our budget.

Jim H
 
#20 ·
Jim H said:
Thanks for the tip-- I have been researching the Calibers. I have the Practical Sailor review of the 40 LRC, but I haven't got to read it yet. I did read a Cruising World review of one of the new larger models, and they seemed pretty impressed with the tankage system. Sounds like the design is almost like a double-bottom to the boat, and reduces the number of thru-hulls.

You're right that costs are high, though. A 38 would be closer to our budget.

Jim H
I have read the PS review and it was generally positive.. they did comment on the LRC tankage and possible concerns - I like the fact that mine are installed and not intergrated and while I it only has 45 gallons of fuel I can add a second tank tho not enough to equal the 200 plus LRC. But I think I am fine w/ that. My water is 125.

The construction seems very solid.. and sails alot better than I expected in five-six knots of wind.. and very well in 18-20.

There is a 38 in Severna Park MD that is a FSBO .. I looked at it prior to buying and it showed well.. I dont recall what he was asking but low 100s. I think.
 
#21 ·
Hey Surfesq, I'm in the same "boat" as it were. Old School Rules! Especially when brought back with the help of some new tech items that truly are improvements over older versions (better sails, rigging improvements, etc). When I see an old car, I don't care what brand, I have to salute those guys for bringing it back and keeping it on the road. Same with old boats.
 
#22 ·
So now what!

First of all I love these disccusion boards they are so helpful second of all no disrespect to anyone, just trying to find answer instead of being left off in the middle of nowhere.

This is a wonderful thread, but what is the out come. What should a person do or consider. The strength of an older boat that may be in need of a complete transformation or the cost of a newer boat that still needs all the aminities. I'm also in the same position here. I don't have he money for a newer boat or want to deal with the time to restore a older boat.

So really is there no real answer to this question or is the question the answer.

Buy the older boat for a lot less money and put what would cost them the price of a new boat to restore the older boat that they purchase. Now when did you want to sail into the sunset with this boat. Oh yea! Don't forget you'll need to nest egg a savings for your trip! How much money do you have and how much time do you have to save up for.

or

Go into debt and buy that newer boat, complete the boat by purchasing all the accessories needed to complete the boat ready for passaging, while trying to pay the boat off.

The delima still stands.

The answer is what do you want to trade off for! Seems that's the story with boats. True or false? Tell me!

Thanks everyone sorry to sound frustrated!
tbeargladd.
 
#23 ·
Tbear...
I think that to some extent you are right about trade offs...but you don't have to buy a boat that needs everything re-done. I think that finding the boat you want in excellent condition and ready to go is unlikely in an older boat, BUT...you can get close if you have time and patience. Example...you may see two Catalina 36's on line for 120K and 140K respectively. The 120K one may need 50K to bring it up to snuff while the $140K model may only need $10K. The mass of used boats on the market makes it unlikely that the well fitted out boat can realize its true value in relation to the others on the market...so you get a bargain IF you can find that particular boat or wait for the owner who originally hoped for $170k to lower it into the right price range since no one will look at it at $170K.

Finally...many boats are in decent enough shape to start living on and sailing a bit on and improving as you can afford to. What you decide to do is up to you and the choices are not as bleak as you make them sound but you don't get something for nothing and those that think they can often get more than they bargained for!
 
#24 ·
Good comments, both of you.

As I read and think more about the original question, I feel very lucky to have the 27 foot '73 boat I have. I've sailed it for almost a year now, once a week or more, and it's yet to surprise me with a complicated or expensive repair. It was maintained well, and I try my best to continue the process, and in the end I think it could serve me well for years of local daysailing and cruising.

In an older boat, I think that's the best case scenario. As noted, after a boat is 10 years old, it all comes down to maintenance as to whether the boat will sail or not, and if it will drain your wallet or not. That's why the "too good to be true" boats can be very expensive traps.

That said, for more than local daysailing and cruising, I think the stakes go much higher. The stresses from real coastal cruising (months at a time, partially offshore) are much higher that what I put on my boat. I read a lot of local stories about local cruises of 1-2 months on older boats that end with very expensive repairs being needed. If I had quit my job to cruise, my plans could be radically changed by a sudden $15k essential repair, being on the hard for a couple of months, etc.

So, for smaller boats and smaller goals, I feel that there's no question that a used boat with the very best maintenance history possible is worth the money, even if you pay extra for the superior past maintenance. For larger boats and larger plans, I think there could be a law of diminishing returns, where even new systems (if poorly installed) could lead to ongoing headaches, expenses and problems. In this realm, my sense is that being able to afford a boat that is 5-8 years old, with excellent maintenance, could provide significant benefits if you have serious and immediate goals.

New boats can have real problems, and a "five-year-old" boat is no guarantee of reliablity either, but my sense is the odds are improved. A boat 33 years old, like my 27 footer, may also be excellent shape and have fully updated systems, but there seems to be a lot of possible issues based on how well the work was done and problems not yet discovered (like hull-deck leaks when the boat is stressed in ocean swells).

But hey, it's all a process. From an odds perspective, maybe it's just better to own a series of boats, carefully learning from each, instead of trying to hit a home run with a major boat loan and a new or almost new boat. I still like the idea of careful, affordable steps to larger boats, or just sticking with a paid-off and enjoyable older boat for years until a big jump can be made. I just don't want a big boat with so many surprise problems that I can sail because of time and money issues. As noted at the start of the thread, I've learned about too many cruises that have never occured because of cost and time and older boats.

Thanks!

Jim H
 
#25 ·
A dilemma for sure. However, I think there is likely a consensus that for most people on a budget of sorts, it doesn't make sense to buy a new boat (high initial cost, depreciation, needing to add equipment to customize it for your own needs, etc.). Also, it doesn't make sense unless you have real skills in repair to buy a real old "project" boat that will require immense time and unknown resources to bring it back to good shape--and even then you often end up with a less than great boat.
For most of us, I suggest it's most reasonable to buy the boat that we can afford, and is in as good shape as possible, and meets our specifications for the kind of sailing we plan to do.
Just my thoughts...
Frank.
 
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