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Radical change?

5K views 17 replies 7 participants last post by  flo617 
#1 ·
Hello,

I'm looking for my new boat. After sailing and fixing my old 1967 Columbia29 for a few years, which still sails fine btw, I'm looking for something newer, and maybe new period.

I find myself very much attracted to the DJANGO 670 and maybe its bigger brother the DJANGO 770. It would be a stretch to get one of these shipped from across the world but maybe...

Realizing I had more fun on the bay on my laser, I am really attracted to the fast cruiser concept, especially in an unsinkable package. Let's face it, the chance that I will do a circumnavigation and disappear in the horizon a la Moitessier is rather low. Having fun on the bay with the chance of going down the North American and Central American coast while having a blast at the helm is more probable.

What do you think of those designs? Should I get worried of getting stuck with it upside down if it capsize?
 
#2 ·
From what I remember of sailing around the Bay area, I's sure want to pick my weather very carefully before taking something like that out the Gate.
I raced on one of the most radical boats of her day, a Thunderbird, and the Bay boats had an extra 800 pounds in the keel. Whenever we went south to race, we couldn't sail their much lighter boats very well.
I'm not sure such a tiny outboard would suit the Bay's currents.
 
#3 ·
Nice looking boats but I think their keel surface area is rather small, so the boat would be making a lot of leeway when going up wind. Having adequate engine for use in areas with strong currents is a valid point. I'm also not a big fan of open transoms. In heavy weather they are more of a liability than asset.
All boats are a compromise. Just pick what you like and can afford. For me, that second criteria tends to limit my choices. ;)
 
#4 · (Edited)
I don't know,for the 670 it's 5.2' deep for a 21 foot with close to half of its weight in the keel I would think it should get decent if not stellar performance upwind,

Motor is a good point but weighing only a ton (empty of course),it should be easy to push by an outboard.

What worries me a little is the large form factor of the deck in case of a knockdown.

I feel I may be chasing a unicorn. A boat that will not be a constant money and worry pit (I want to forget about hull-deck joints, delamination and exhaust risers for a while), that is safe, fast and fun in a wide range of conditions and that can take me round the Faralones or down the coast if I fancy some day.
 
#5 ·
It is not just weight and depth of the keel that make for good upwind performance. The keel has to have sufficient surface area in order to resist lateral force of wind pushing the boat downwind. Depth and weight of the keel relate to boat's vertical stability (capsize factor or screening number). When you add the surface area of the keels and rudders in this boat (visually only as I have no hard data), they seem kind of small, but maybe I'm wrong. Large underwater area slows the boat down, but it has to be sufficient in order to stop the boat from sliding down wind.
 
#10 ·
Long thin foils are way more efficient at resisting leeway/creating lift. Look at the newer gliders that can stay up seemingly forever with their long thin wings. Way more efficient than their shorter, fatter winged predecessors. The long thin foils work because they create lift more than simply resist sideways pressure. They are much trickier to sail however as they create lift over a small range of angles of attack and water flow so stall out where shorter, fatter keels will still create lift and or just resist sideways slip by form factor. They go to weather very well as long as they are sailed within their narrow optimum performance parameters.

I'm old school having cruised a Westsail 32 and currently on a '69 Pearson 35 but the Pogo has peaked my interest if I was rich. The Pogo 30 looks like a fun boat to sail and enough room for short cruises. Wouldn't be able to load it down with a lot of stuff for long range, unsupported venturing but for most POPULAR cruising destinations would work just fine. Over a $100,000 for a boat that's largely popped out of a mold is a bit much, however.
 
#6 ·
I am going out on a limb here and say that Pierre Rolland knows how to design a boat that can sail both up wind and down wind with the best of them. several of his designs have been around the world. As much as most US sailors would like to believe that the old US made Iron is the best way to build a sail boat. the French have us beat in both design and craftsmanship. The French seem to put there heart into sailing and dam how much it cost. the Django line of boats is worth every penny and after you sail one you will think it should be worth twice what you paid. very well thought out boat, well made and blast to sail.
 
#7 ·
I see. However, I don't remember having issues going upwind on dinghies and they had fairly small appendages. The main issues going upwind in a blow with them was my ability to keep them flat which is why I was mentioning the keel depth and weight.

Plus as the boat heels, I would think (and maybe I'm wrong) that the wide beam would dig into the water and further act as a break to sideway forces and hence my original worry of a boat that could turtle easier than one would want in a strong wind.
 
#8 ·
The 6.70 is pretty much a detuned version of the DJANGO mini 6.50... I wouldn't worry about it being able to handle weather. The boats were designed to sail any ocean including the roaring 40's. The 6.70 is an honest to god blue water boat designed to cross oceans, round the capes, and take a serious beating.

So in short, if anything it's more boat than you are talking about needing.

Personally I just want a larger boat though. In this market I would be looking for a used Pogo 30, or a DJANGO 9.99 (I think it is). They are very similar in intention and design, the Pogo is better known and has a bigger presence on the mini and open 40 circuit, but they are pretty much direct replacements for each other.

Shipping really isn't an issue. Put in in a container and ship it wherever you want it for a couple of grand. Worst case they take the keel off and ship it sideways (very common for the mini's).
 
#9 ·
can they fit a POGO 30's 12.5 foot been in a container? Last year I was told no they can not and the shipping quote to the west coast was $22k inside with keel off and 19k for top load outside with the keel on. mast is longer then container
 
#11 ·
I was actually thinking of shipping the 6.70 not a 30.

I absolutely wouldn't second guess Structures, but I am wondering if you dropped the keel and rolled the boat on its side if it would fit inside a FlatRack container. It still wouldn't be as cheap as a standard container, but it should be less than deck cargo.

The flat rack also allows you to use the entire 8'6" width of a container since it is loaded from above.
 
#12 ·
I'll definitely try to give Maree Haute a visit when I pass by France in November. Maybe I'll manage to take a look at the Nautic Paris boat show as well.

If I could get a 670 into a container that might be the best compromise, something for fast daysail and microcruising along the coast and save money in initial cost and upkeep for an older longer bluewater cruiser that can cross the ocean in comfort and style if I ever decide to cross the oceans (or just hop onto one as a crew when I can show off my experience.)
 
#13 ·
I recently had a great visit to Maree Haute on the west coast of France (Britanny). Got a tour of the small plant and people were very friendly and helpful. I got to take a tour of one of the D670 unit they are about to show at the Paris Nautic and it looked like a great design and build. As a result I am very motivated in getting one of them over here. Alas it looks like it won't fit in a regular container, even tilted but maybe in an open flat container. They are studying the shipping costs at the moment to see if it would make sense (one would argue none of it makes sense but that's another issue...)

Now, because it's such an expensive unit, I am thinking a little on resale value when it will be time to sell it at some point. This boat is essentially a series mini 650 (D2V2, another boat from Maree Haute) with a different cabin and keel. In terms of handling it should feel very similar but it would not be able to go through a mini-transat. It lacks a watertight companionway hatch and especially is missing the rear escape hatch. On the other hand it can be beached and is more crew friendly.

The cost of a D2V2 is very similar to that of a D670 and I am having some hesitations now.
Also, there at least one Pogo2 from 2012 or so (another more popular mini650) for sale on the east coast. Very nice boat and complete package and very easy to bring to the west coast but initial asking price is higher than the new boat+sails+electronics+taxes (less sails but new sails). Part of it is that mini-transat boats are scarce here and seem to have a niche market for them.

I think the local demand for a series mini-transat should be much higher but I can't quite tell. (It's really too bad that OpenSailing went out of business)

In terms of pure sailing, all these boat should feel fairly equal. In terms of cruising ability and day-sailing with crew, they offer the same volumes and potentials but the D670 is set up in a better way.

Given the cost of the machines I'm a little stuck figuring out what to do.

Florent
 
#14 ·
This guy seems to be impressed by the 770 :https://www.mareehaute.fr/article-o...cal-boat-owner-number-605-of-october/?lang=en but to read the whole article it seems you have to subscribe to PBO. Videos like this one seem to show a boat that's pretty stable, but which may be wet: Brittany can get some nasty weather, so they're likely to build accordingly. Are you looking at the twin-keel version, or which? Getting one of them to SFO may be pricey.
 
#15 ·
No I was referring to the smaller Django670. I know shipping will likely be expensive but considering sales tax is 11% less in California than France, I hope it will cover a good portion and make me feel a little better about the transaction. But I'm waiting for the shipping estimate.
 
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