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  #21  
Old 01-20-2007
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Here is my metareasoning behind this plan:
As far as meeting needs in life there are two lines of thinking: 1) How do I get more and 2) How can I do with less.
We are taking route 2, with the idea that drastically reducing our global footprint is a responsible, and satisfying way of approaching life.

As far as choosing a boat and upgrading for cruising: what we want to do is buy the boat now, and upgrade over the years as we have the money and the time. If the boat isn't an ocean cruiser for 10 years so be it, as new sailors the reality we may not be ready until then. The point for us is the possibility-- to know that should we feel the imperative we can turn our attentions toward preping her and ourselves for long voyages. In the interim, we should just be able to use her to practice our skills in order to really become good sailors and to live albeit cosily on. (did I mention that our last home was a 20' diameter tipi?)
As a counter example, has anyone read about the guy who was recently dismasted around cape horn? That guy is the anti-me. He decided to circumnavigate in order to learn to sail!?! He had 3 gps devices. He had a huge inboard motor. He had a 40 someodd foot boat. In retrospect all of this proved too much. I think I read he had a years worth of coastal cruising experience...
Me, well like I said before-- some sort of head would be nice. As for things like showering the truth is, I usually go to school gym after my classes are out and wind up showering there. I rarely use my shower at home as it is...
Another example, I recently e-mailed Yves Gélinas of circumnavigating-in-an-Alberg-30-using-his-own-CapeHorn-self-steering fame, as to the issues that arise from sailing with an outboard particularly in rough weather (he removed his inboard prior to his trip.) His response: either sail, find a harbor or heave-to. (You can read about his boat here: http://www.capehorn.com/sections/rem...oriserAng.htm). Simple enough.

We want to immerse ourselves in boats and sailing, but we want to do it in a way that our time, resources and abilities permit. For us that means 1st, getting aboard. We can't afford/ don't desire to afford living aboard and having a house. Why should we? We don't need both... if the boat doesn't work out, we'll move back to land, so far as I know it's not going anywhere (barring melting ice caps).
Certainly a boat is a lot of work and expense. But then again so is owning a 120 year old house in the country such as we currently do. There is the expense of heating (2000 a season) the expense of lawn care, taxes, maintanance, mortgage, insurance etc. I am certain that with planning we will be able to create a liveaboard situation that is less expensive.

Why is it so crazy that we should try and live in a small space together as a family? Because people in our culture generally don't do it. We are expected to try and grow our resources, our possessions etc as our family grows. Call it the SUVacation of America. Like many people our age, we have a small amount of credit card debt, a moderate amount of student loan debt, and of course a mortgage.Most days we wake up and ask, what for? Today people are more overweight than ever, feel more isolated than ever, are in greater debt than ever...
I guess you could say this plan is an experiment to see if we can take a different approach to the way we plan our lives. I am certain we have a lot of hard work ahead, as well as a lot of lessons to learn. Great! What's the point of living otherwise.
And, if we find we need more down the road, then we'll get more. Until then, we won't worry about it.

Phew,
Hope I don't sound too preachy.
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  #22  
Old 01-20-2007
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Michael... doesn't sound preachy to me at all. Good explanation of your plans and where you are coming from. You seem to be tempermentally suited to living really bare bones and cramped so that is a major plus in your favor. Look, worst case is that you'll have invested 15K+ in something that didn't work out the way you had hoped and you'll sell at a bit of a loss. Compared to your investment in med school...that is a pittance! And once you "hang out your shingle"...it won't seem like such a big deal anyway. You can always get a bigger boat or decide the whole boat thing is overrated but at least you won't be wondering about whether you should have done it! Your approach sounds both prudent and right for you guys. Are you attending UVM currently? I went to a little school 30 miles down route 7...I'm just getting warmer now!!
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Old 01-20-2007
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I think that your idea of downsizing and living a less materialistic, consumption driven lifestyle is an excellent one. I agree with it as well.
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  #24  
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Boat Plans Cont

Yup, I am currently at UVM, taking the medical school prerequisites. Since the application process is a year and a half long, next year I will not be in school, so it is an ideal time for us to test out living aboard.
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Old 01-20-2007
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Hmm - You don't mention it but I really hope that you're not planning on living on this boat WHILE you are going to med school. As an interlude it sounds like fun - but once you start to study and really need to get involved in things - it is not an option. Most likely outcome is that you'll barely pass, if at all - and be known as the intern who smells funny and has mouldy clothes.

As far as 15K for a boat under 30 feet with standing headroom for 6' + and twin keels - DOESN'T EXIST ! If you find it - then leave the wife and child on shore, pay up your life insurance, and then venture out to sea- it's not fair to drown them as well.

Here's a suggestion...buy a decent Alberg 30 and live on it for a year with the family, making forays up and down the coast. When you start school, move ashore, and apply yourself to your education, for the good of yourself, your wife, your child, and your patients.

Don't set up a huge number of needless obstacles to success, because if you finish medical school properly - you'll be able to buy and fit out whatever boat your heart desires and spend your life sailing and working all over the world.

Don't screw up the long term possibility for a short-term adventure.
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  #26  
Old 01-20-2007
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Quote:
Here is my metareasoning behind this plan:
As far as meeting needs in life there are two lines of thinking: 1) How do I get more and 2) How can I do with less.
We are taking route 2, with the idea that drastically reducing our global footprint is a responsible, and satisfying way of approaching life...
if we find we need more down the road, then we'll get more. Until then, we won't worry about it.

Now there is a noble concept, being satisfied, while making more out of less. That is exactly what I am talking about~!!

Love not sleep, lest thou come to poverty; open thine eyes, [and] thou shalt be satisfied with bread. Pro 20:13

The way I see it doc, is that you have 15K to throw down on a boat; talk about a lot of bread, and a huge responsibility to boot. Practicality ought to be priority one, blue water boat could actual be a residual of having a practical living arrangement. There are plenty of boats that are already rigged for Blue Water on the market, I was actually looking at this one I made a $7,000 offer and it was accepted.


http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/p...oat_id=1374541

Heck with another 5K this boat could be a steal indeed.

Point is to be diligent in your search, don't assume that a 30' will be easier to manage than a 33 or even a 34 for that matter, as dog pointed out that is just not the case. My point is that I just don't see your wife and infant taking showers at school with you.

Speaking from my own personal experience, I was surprise to learn how high a premium that the commodity of privacy is for a woman. As the man, she trusts you to take "good" care of here and the baby. I just don’t see her packing up the baby in the rain to go and take a shower together as being practical or well thought out. Paying 25 dollars more a month for 3 extra feet when it is going to be giving you one quarter more living space is a priceless no brainer IMO.

The footprint of 3 more feet could indeed make a better impact on a global level, considering it may alleviate just that much more undue stress from the level our society possess; the difference in the quality and satisfaction level of your family’s existence will make the world a better place. Talk about going from the outhouse to the penthouse~!!

The way I see it 3 to 4 more feet could be the difference of green to red on the satisfaction spectrum. You sir are about to navigate to a new conscious plateau, make sure that your family as well as yourself are comfortable as possible.

You have enough money for all three of you guys to be absolutely comfortable, or absolutely miserable. I just want to take this opportunity to expand your horizon on that logic. More with less can be a good thing.

If I where you, what I would do is look for boats in the 33'-35' range with the asking price of 15-25K and making them offers based your budget constraints. Reach for the skies and you will be shocked at what you can pluck out of it this time of year. You will be shocked at what people will settle for, remeber they toocan be dreaming with their asking price...

If you’re going to dream, dream big. Being a Doc, I am sure you are well aware of the expression and an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, I doubt you will say you need a smaller boat with a 34 footer, and what position will you be in to get a bigger boat after you spend your 15K?

People want to get the money they invest in their boats, but fact of the matter is, there are just to many boats on the market to make that reality so. Know and understand that. Point is people find themselves buying boats and dumping a ton of money into them, only to find themselves selling the boat for less than their original purchase price. In general, the pleasure in sailing comes from investing the money into boats not from trying to flip and getting it back out them.

For instance, I was at breakfast this morning and someone saw me looking at a sailboat trader and offered to give me his 40’ boat. I am serious, it was costing him 400+ dollars a month in storage, don;t underestimate a persons desperate desire to get rid of their boats... Now thinking about it, the man in the restraunt would have probably paid me to take his boat.

A man in NC wanted to sell me a project boat for 10K a boat mind you that needed 25K’s worth of work. Point is you can find boats that people want to get rid of for various reasons, I suggest you find a boat where the owners already went through the trouble bringing it up to speed so to speak @ a fraction of what they spent to get the boat there, there are too many of those available to pass up.

Sailboats I have learned are can be an enigmanolamy. A 25’ boat can be harder to sail than a 35’? A boat you bought for 20K and spent 25K refurbishing could wind up being sold for 14K not even a year after completing the refurbishing? Deals of a lifetime come by every other month? WHAT THE WHAT THE WHAT? Don’t set yourself up for regret; Carpe Diem. Seek and you shall find…

First lesson in sailing 101 is not to set yourself up for worries... Consider yourself on land about to take a voyage to the great blue wonder, You don't want to wait till you get out there to realize that your boat is not big enough... Hello~!!

You don't want to wait till your money is spent to realize that your boat is not comfortable enough to live on. There is a difference between being comfortable with something and being able to tolerate something. The last thing you want to be forced to do with your new home that you will more than likely be stuck in is having to tolerate it. As if there is not enough in the world we are already forced to tolerate.

The way I see it, your home is an extension of your conscious mind, make sure there is room for every one to copacatically exist. There will be plenty of things to worry about with having to set yourself up for it.

I don't see another big chunk of money coming my way anytime in the near future, so I am doing everything in my power to make sure I make the most of it. It is easier to make more space with less money. Less is more, now the only question you have to answer is what is more? Space or the headache of not having enough of it?
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  #27  
Old 01-20-2007
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Michael,

I've just moved aboard myself and found myself going over and over different boats that I could get into around the same range. My plan was to find something, fix it up while using it and then when I'm finished with school sail off into the sunset.

In the end I changed my mindset a little. I stopped thinking that the boat I was buying was going to be my boat for the next 5-10 years.

What I decided on was a boat that's considered a good coastal cruiser and has lots of room for 30 feet. In the end it narrowed down to a Catalina 30 or Newport 30 II. They are very similar in width, sail area and all other numbers.

Finally bought the Newport 30 because I've known the owner for a long time and knew he had always taken good care of the boat.

Point is...I love the boat, it'll give me a lot more experience in sailing (had a Catalina 22 before) and then in another 3-5 years after I've got some experience coastal cruising I'll look for another boat, something more geared towards bluewater cruising.

Don't get stuck in the mind set that the boat you buy is the last boat you'll own.

Alan
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At your price point start thinking Alberg. Most of the other boats you mention are well above that. A late model pearson such as a 303 or a 28-2 will give you both the private head and head room you are looking for.Are you going to buy on the west coast? If so that is going to effect your buying power per boat buck and limit your choices.
I would narrow it down to four boats and then search to see what is available. If you are both on board with the dream, go for it! lots of luck.
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  #29  
Old 01-20-2007
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If you have well over a year, why narrow it down to 4 boats rather than size? Expand your location for that matter, especially if you have time to sail it back to school. I looked at boats in Ohio, Arizona, NY, mexico, The Islands...

Look at this boat in California it is only 5K

68 33' Yorktown Sloop

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/cgi-...1&ID=5890&mh=1

Make the most of your money by utilizing as many options as you possibly can. The window of opportunity is only as wide as you allow it to be. In a year from now the only thing that is going to matter is what you settled for. Make it count.

"Take it from me cuz i found
If you leave it then somebody else is bound
To find that treasure, that moment of pleasure
When yours, it could have been" Jimmy Buffet

Last edited by JagsBch; 01-20-2007 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 01-20-2007
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Way to go Mike. I'm with you on the whole "living with less"... I have worked in an office for the last few years with a dress code, and am expected to look together - shave, ironed clothes, smell OK and all the other things "civilized society" expects ... I first lived on an older 40' houseboat, which was gutted when I bought it. I lived in the huge vberth that summer and fixed it up... My first big boat - I bit off more than I could chew - I never finished it and was lucky to sell it and break almost even.

Next was a little 25' sailboat, which, like the houseboat, was a bare shell when I bought it. It took me a few weeks of hard work, but I accomplished more with the sailboat, and it felt more like home than the houseboat would have even if I had put in another years worth of work. Point is, stick to your guns and go small! You will work out the details, like using a little hand steamer to straighten out your clothes and febreeze to give them that "fresh scent", and you're already set with the gym shower... If you need space just take the dinghy for a row or take your books to the club snug...

Good Luck!

PS - I gotta say I agree with the whole "stay away from wood" thing though. Seen too many bad things happen to wood boats, and they are a fulltime job to maintain.
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