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  #1  
Old 01-16-2007
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Jeff H, THe Perfect Boat

Well, I have to ask you Jeff... What IS the perfect boat? I know you are partial to Farr's, but with all of your postings, I still am not sure if there is a boat(s) you dream about (don't mention the Catalina... Giu will be all over that one)??? Just curious. Had to ask.

- CD
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Old 01-16-2007
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PS, Jeff, remember money is not a object in dreams.
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Old 01-16-2007
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I am not sure that there is such a thing as a perfect boat. Years ago, Tony Dias, a yacht designer friend of mine, was writing a book called "Designer and Client" showing how the design process worked by cronicling the process of designing boats for seven real people. I was one of them.

Here was the description that I wrote of my ideal boat for the book.

"My ideal boat would be the ultimate coastwise cruiser. Coastwise cruisers were first popularized in the 1920’s. While they were not intended to be race boats, they were fast enough to race competitively, and to get you home when it was time to go back to work. They were not intended as ocean voyagers, yet they were seaworthy enough to stand up to whatever weather encountered. They were not meant to be floating hotel suites but they provided a comfortable place cook and eat and sleep. In the 1970’s, the coastwise cruiser became the cruiser/ racer. They were still boats that could do both. Then came the age of specialization. Today, you’re forced to choose between blue water cruisers that are only intended for ocean voyaging, and race boats only intended for grand prix racing, and so called family cruisers that are designed to carry the maximum number of people crammed into their own little “staterooms”. I may dream of long ocean passages, or racing the grand prix circuit, and be attracted to the image presented in family cruiser literature but I have to ask myself, How do I really use my boat ?

I sail weekends, evenings, perhaps a long cruise now and then. I would love to live aboard but mostly cruise when time permits. I may race a few club races and perhaps the beer can series. I have friends to sail with, but more often than not sail a short handed. I am far more likely to face light to moderate conditions than to weather a gale underway and are more likely be hit by short chop and motorboat slop than the “ultimate wave”. I would like to follow the wind’s call but mostly follow a schedule. No gimmicks- just a fast and comfortable cruising boat

I would like something like:
Sensible interior:
Full sized berths for a reasonable number of people. Berths that are comfortable underway as well as at a boat show. Comfortable seating for the entire crew and a few visitors more. A galley that works. Canvas clothing lockers that can be packed ashore and carried aboard. Canvas hull liners that are light in weight and which can be thrown in the washer at the end of the season.

Sensible Galley:
The fully equipped galley is located near the companionway where it is within easy reach of the cockpit and dinette. Its position near the center of buoyancy means a galley with the least amount of motion. A top loaded Ice box. Frankly the one item that seems to be the most problematic on boats is refrigeration so I am not sure that I would have refrigeration. As a vegetarian this could work for me.

High Tech Construction:
The careful use of modern materials carefully engineered to produce a boat that is strong, light, and durable. Light to be able to drive through a chop or ghost in light air. Durable since you would rather use your limited time sailing than performing maintenance.

Fractional Rig:
The fractional rig is the perfect cruising rig. Since the majority of the sail area is in an easily de- powered mainsail there is no need live with an oversized genoa. This tall rig is very effective in light air. The comparatively small lapper jib works in a wide range of wind speeds. It is easy to tack and furls on a below deck mounted roller furler. As the wind builds the main is easily de- powered, just drop the traveler and crank in a bit of mast bend. When it really blows, the cockpit led reef lines and halyards permits quick on- the- fly reefing.

Daggerboard with Lead Bulb and Water Ballast:
Despite the shoal draft long keel, or wing keel hype nothing goes to weather like a properly ballasted deep draft keel. Unfortunately, many a great anchorage is inaccessible to a 7’-6” draft. A daggerboard would permit the boat to sail exceptionally well when depths permit and an electric center board winch would allow for quick draft adjustment when shallower venues beckon.. A 1990’s era Whitbread 60 style moveable water ballast would allow the boat to sail safer faster, and carry more sail comfortably in higher winds.

Full Size Tankage:
When a boat can sleep seven people it needs to have proper tankage and storage. Tankage should be something like 120 gallons of potable water storage in separate tanks, a 60 gallon holding tank (less with a treatment system), and a 80 gallon diesel fuel tank.



LENGTH OVERALL LOA 44’-6”


LENGTH ON WATERLINE LWL 41’-6”


BEAM ON DECK B 12’-8”


BEAM AT WATERLINE BWL 10’-1”


DISPLACEMENT 16,800 LBS.
DRAFT- BOARD UP 5’-7”
DRAFT- BOARD DN. 7’-7”

BALLAST- LEAD DAGGERBOARD 6,845 LBS.
BALLAST- WATER BALLAST 1875 LBS.
SAIL AREA
Mainsail 585 S.F.

100% Triangle 438 S.F.

TOTAL 1023 S.F.




DISPLACEMENT/ LENGTH RATIO 140 to 150


SAIL AREA/ DISPLACEMENT RATIO 24-25


BALLAST/ DISPLACEMENT RATIO 41 %




MAX. GZ Positive To 125 o"

I also drew a couple preliminary sketches at the time which are attached. I also really like my current boay a Farr 11.6 (Farr 38)

Jeff
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Jeff H, THe Perfect Boat-ideal-44-sailplan.jpg   Jeff H, THe Perfect Boat-ideal-44-profile.jpg  

Last edited by Jeff_H; 01-16-2007 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 01-17-2007
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Jeff,

I note that your design has a plumb bow. There has been recent discussion here concerning the comfort of such a design. I have not been able to fully resolve those arguments within myself, as I would think that the adjoining hull shape rather than the angle of the bow would be the determinant. Would you care to add your comments?

Bob
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Old 01-17-2007
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Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice
Smile In that case, I have the PERFECT boat !!

Jeff, I have built your “perfect” boat…

Not to brag, but Jeff, too late…. I have your boat, and its not in paper!!!!

As I read your post, and the items of your choice were exactly what I have, on my boat, I was getting really excited.



My ideal boat would be the ultimate coastwise cruiser. Coastwise cruisers were first popularized in the 1920’s. While they were not intended to be race boats, they were fast enough to race competitively, and to get you home when it was time to go back to work. They were not intended as ocean voyagers, yet they were seaworthy enough to stand up to whatever weather encountered. GIULIETTA - CHECK

They were not meant to be floating hotel suites but they provided a comfortable place cook and eat and sleep. GIULIETTA - CHECK

In the 1970’s, the coastwise cruiser became the cruiser/ racer. They were still boats that could do both. Then came the age of specialization. Today, you’re forced to choose between blue water cruisers that are only intended for ocean voyaging, and race boats only intended for grand prix racing, and so called family cruisers that are designed to carry the maximum number of people crammed into their own little “staterooms”. I may dream of long ocean passages, or racing the grand prix circuit, and be attracted to the image presented in family cruiser literature but I have to ask myself, How do I really use my boat ?
I sail weekends, evenings, perhaps a long cruise now and then. I would love to live aboard but mostly cruise when time permits. I may race a few club races and perhaps the beer can series. I have friends to sail with, but more often than not sail a short handed. I am far more likely to face light to moderate conditions than to weather a gale underway and are more likely be hit by short chop and motorboat slop than the “ultimate wave”. I would like to follow the wind’s call but mostly follow a schedule. No gimmicks- just a fast and comfortable cruising boat. GIULIETTA - CHECK

I would like something like:
Sensible interior:
Full sized berths for a reasonable number of people. Berths that are comfortable underway as well as at a boat show. Comfortable seating for the entire crew and a few visitors more. A galley that works. Canvas clothing lockers that can be packed ashore and carried aboard. Canvas hull liners that are light in weight and which can be thrown in the washer at the end of the season. GIULIETTA - CHECK

Sensible Galley:
The fully equipped galley is located near the companionway (GIULIETTA has its Galley amid ships to even the weight, but was supposed to be a L shaped galley inittialy. Not practical in our seas), where it is within easy reach of the cockpit and dinette. Its position near the center of buoyancy means a galley with the least amount of motion. A top loaded Ice box. (I personnaly hate those so got a front door 100l marine refrigerator with internal ice box) Frankly the one item that seems to be the most problematic on boats is refrigeration so I am not sure that I would have refrigeration. As a vegetarian (sorry the only thing we are different I'm a sucker for a rare NY strip!!)this could work for me. GIULIETTA - CHECK


High Tech Construction:
The careful use of modern materials carefully engineered to produce a boat that is strong, light, and durable. Light to be able to drive through a chop or ghost in light air. Durable since you would rather use your limited time sailing than performing maintenance. GIULIETTA - CHECK, she'a all GF/Divinycell/GF and Carbon fiber.


Fractional Rig:
The fractional rig is the perfect cruising rig. Since the majority of the sail area is in an easily de- powered mainsail there is no need live with an oversized genoa. (yes, my opinion also) This tall rig is very effective in light air (63' custom Sparcraft performance). The comparatively small lapper jib works in a wide range of wind speeds. (here I went further, I have CF forward swept spreaders, and the genoa works inside the shrouds, to incrase pointing) It is easy to tack and furls on a below deck mounted roller furler. (that's old stuff now. I opted for a code Zero Facnor Furler, real low to the deck, and allows for the batten race genoa to be hoisted normally).As the wind builds the main is easily de- powered, just drop the traveler and crank in a bit of mast bend. When it really blows, the cockpit led reef lines and halyards permits quick on- the- fly reefing. GIULIETTA - CHECK

Daggerboard with Lead Bulb and Water Ballast:
Despite the shoal draft long keel, or wing keel hype nothing goes to weather like a properly ballasted deep draft keel. Unfortunately, many a great anchorage is inaccessible to a 7’-6” draft. A daggerboard would permit the boat to sail exceptionally well when depths permit and an electric center board winch would allow for quick draft adjustment when shallower venues beckon.. A 1990’s era Whitbread 60 style moveable water ballast would allow the boat to sail safer faster, and carry more sail comfortably in higher winds.

GIULIETTA – HALF CHECK I decided on a fixed keel, so that I could save some weight, but the original design was just like this. My difference is my keel is completely vertical and not inclined bacwards as yours

Full Size Tankage:
When a boat can sleep seven people (10 in GIULIETTA As the sallon table goes down to make a bed) it needs to have proper tankage and storage. Tankage should be something like 120 gallons of potable water storage in separate tanks, a 60 gallon holding tank (I have 2 tanks at 10 gal each for weight) (less with a treatment system), and a 80 gallon diesel fuel tank.GIULIETTA - CHECK


LENGTH OVERALL LOA 44’-6” (well GIULIETTA IS 42’ because above 42 the marina prices are crazy!!!, but please, don't be picky!!!)

LENGTH ON WATERLINE LWL 41’-6” GIULIETTA- CHECK I'm 41'-3"

BEAM ON DECK B 12’-8” GIULIETTA CHECK 13.6’

BEAM AT WATERLINE BWL 10’-1” GIULIETTA-CHECK

DISPLACEMENT 16,800 LBS. GIULIETTA IS 15.000 LBSBOAT WEIGHT (7.500 Kg weighed by scale )
DRAFT- BOARD UP 5’-7” (Don't have this PLEASE CHECK SEE NOTE ABOVE)

DRAFT- BOARD DN. 7’-7” GIULIETTA IS 8’3” CLOSE ENOUGH Went a little deeper with keel to save on lead wieght. An Option I took.

BALLAST- LEAD DAGGERBOARD 6,845 LBS. GIULIETTA IS 2800 Kg

BALLAST- WATER BALLAST 1875 LBS. GIULIETTA CHECK Fully transferable, 4,5 minutes to transfer from port to starbord tanks, and also...get this .....front ot rear!!!


SAIL AREA

Mainsail 585 S.F. GIULIETTA-CHECK ACTUALLY 586 SF
100% Triangle 438 S.F. AHHH ALMOST but Jeff’s boat is 44’ mine is 42, so my fore triangle is 389 SF If Giulietta was 44, BINGO!!!!


TOTAL 1023 S.F. TOTAL 1024

I add the Spinnakers:

Symetrical : 131 MS = 1436 SF

Assymetrical: 125MS = 1354 SF

Gybing done with 2 spi poles where allowed since some races here only allow one spi pole.

2 CF wheels, made for my height and arms, and CF Boom. No vang.



DISPLACEMENT/ LENGTH RATIO 140 to 150 Actually GIULIETTA IS 118 assuming boat weight INSTEAD of displacment

SAIL AREA/ DISPLACEMENT RATIO 24-25 GIULIETTA IS 28.18

BALLAST/ DISPLACEMENT RATIO 41 % GIULIETA IS 35%

Also the Dodger, lazy bag, Anchor roller (replaced by aluminium plate with CF pole for spinnaker), TV, and some other items are removed for racing, and easily installed when Lady Giulietta is on Giulietta!!


Now Guys, please you have to admit this is pretty cool, no?? Me all the way on the other side, and came up with the same numbers…..kinda like hitting the lottery!!!

Thank you Jeff.

Now, CD and T you were saying about the Port-a-potty??? I demand respect from now on!!!

By the way, Giulietta was the subject of an Article in VELA (our Sail) magazine in Southern Europe, which will be out at the end of the month, and will be in the cover of the magazine.

In February, she will be in another magazine called NAVEGAR (our Cruising magazine). Sunday we will go out to do the photo session, and to let the reporters test her for a complete sail test.




Last edited by Giulietta; 01-17-2007 at 05:40 PM.
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  #6  
Old 01-17-2007
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Giulietta-

LOL... Jeff's massive brain has been known to affect weaker minds... the weaker the mind the greater the distance he can do it from... I think that might explain things a bit. It might also explain the slight differences between his concept and your execution. However, I doubt that he would have named his boat Giulietta... not being married to the lady.

Actually, the beautiful boat you have is very nice... but would get clobbered in the waters I sail in...as the draft is far too much... and it would run aground in many areas I go. The Perfect Boat is really determined by where you sail and what kind of sailing you want to do.

Jones2r-

IIRC, if the shape of the hull has a very narrow bow, then a plumb bow will cause problems due to the lack of reserve buoyancy in heavy seas. However, a boat shape that has the beam starting fairly far forward shouldn't have those issues. Long overhangs, while they can look very graceful, can also present some serious problems when it comes to heavy weather handling.
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Last edited by sailingdog; 01-17-2007 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 01-17-2007
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The Perfect Boat is always the Next Boat.

Hope Giulietta recovers from his rapture. Too much draft for me, likewise. And too big.

Gary
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Old 01-17-2007
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Bob,

I am a big fan of plumb, or nearly plumb stems. I have not seen the discussion on the comfort of plumb bows but my experience with them, (as does the motion comfort testing that I have seen) suggests that they have a much more comfortable motion (particularly in a chop) since they do not collide as hard with waves and since the buoyancy transistion as the bow enters a wave is more linear and less sudden. They offer much better pitch dampening. Properly modeled plumb bows result in a more easily driven hull form for their given displacement therefore requiring less sail area for a given wind condition. They allow a slightly narrower waterline beam resulting in a slightly gentler roll motion for a given displacement. Properly modeled a plumb bow results in a longer and narrower waterplane, which improves tracking and so partially offsets the loss in tracking associated with the short chord fin keels typically being used with these hull forms. They offer more speed, and allow the center of buoyancy to be moved aft (with all of the advantages that affords) without the penalty of going bow down when heeled.

My only criticism is that I do prefer more flare to the bow than is typical with the current crop of racing plumb stems.

I got a kick out of Giuletta's (What's his name anyway?) post. Giulietta appears to be a really neat boat. I have been admiring Giulietta from what I have been able to see of her.

A quick comment on the angled daggerboard, it was a compromise that I made in the late 1990's when I first sketched this design. I went with the angled daggerboard because I had some structural design ideas that suggested that the angled board might have some positive structural implications when engineering around the loads of a hard grounding. I also thought that the angled board might allow the boat to hove to more effectively by spreading its area over a larger percentage of the boat's waterline length. Annecdotally I have come to suspect that the new vertical keels do not hove to very well as compared to similar area but raked keels.

SD, Thanks for the kind words.

I did want to comment on the design brief presented above. As I read it again this morning, not having actually read it in many years, I was a little surprised by its tone and by the things that were missing from it relatyive to my current thinking. The design brief was written nearly a decade ago, and for multiple purposes partially related to the book that they were intended for. My friend Tony Dias, who is a yacht designer, artist and author (and, like Giulietta's owner is of Portuguese decent), has an intellect and breadth of interest that dwarfs my own, making for very lively and thought provoking exchanges on a range of topics.

He and I had spent many years in a lively dialogue about the virtues of traditional water craft vs more modern designs. Tony is a yacht designer of extraordinary talent and his yacht designs are truly creatures of breathtaking beauty. Tony's natural inclinations leans towards the traditional. I grew up with traditional watercraft and I still am a very big fan of their inherent virtues, but have also spent much of my recent sailing career on more modern designs and have come to love their sailing abilities and ease of handling. To one degree or another, my design brief was intended to provide a forum for that discussion within Tony's book.

Jeff

Last edited by Jeff_H; 01-17-2007 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 01-17-2007
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Old 01-17-2007
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All this talk about plumb bows on a little 40 foot toy boat for real ocean conditions mean diddly.How high is the bow? 4 ,5 feet,you are sticking it in waves of 15 and higher.You don`t get chop in most ocean conditions anyway.If you hit an object like a log in the water and you have no rake in the bow it can`t push it down and deflect.Look at any 700 foot ship that is designed for rough seas and they all are raked.The bow stands 45` + feet in the air so it can take on 30 foot seas for a joke.With 4 feet up in 30 foot seas the difference is nothing,if you have 4 foot waves,sure.I`ve never seen a cruiser built for comfort with a plumb bow,but i`m sure someone will be able to convince them that this is some great new technology,which has been around for hundreds of years.If you sail lakes and sheltered harbors there is a performance advantage,but for average sea conditions...it`s like a fly sitting on a 12 inch Ibeam,does it bend?The difference .......
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