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  #21  
Old 01-28-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasco
sailingdog,

This has nothing to do with documenting a recreational vessel, this pertains to commercial and fishing vessels..... "coastwise or fisheries endorsement". You will note that I staed "recreational vessel" in my initial post on this.
Actually, the only part of that that applies to commercial or fishing vessels is the last sentence... which is why it says "in addition". The prior sentences, quoted below, apply to any USCG documented vessel.

Quote:
Citizenship is established by completion of form CG-1258. In addition to individuals, corporations, partnerships, and other entities capable of holding legal title may be deemed citizens for documentation purposes. Corporations must be registered in a state or the U.S; the chief executive officer and chairman of the board of directors must be U.S. citizens, and no more than a minority of the number of directors necessary to constitute a quorum may be non-citizens.
Tartan34C- That is the page I linked to in my previous post.
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  #22  
Old 01-28-2007
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Dawg...Look at point #4 in your post:
Registration fee and display of validation sticker is required in some states.

This would indicate to me that the site you are on is posting some generic advice even though it is their "Massachusetts" page as if it were a Massachusetts document they would not mention "some states". I am going to try to find some actual state run web pages to settle this as my post was from an external site as well. Will post again with findings.

update:
http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dle/instr...spage.htm#Boat

Look at the proofs required for registration. One is federal documentation. Seems like registration is required.

update again:
Nope..you are right! Here's the link: http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dle/boatregfaq.htm#Require
Am I required to register my boat?
State law requires the registration of any boat that is powered by a motor and operated on public waterways in Massachusetts. Registration is required even if the motor is not the primary means of propulsion for that boat. Some examples of boats that require registration include fishing boats with motors, recreational motorboats, canoes or sailboats that use motors (includes electric motors), and personal watercraft such as Jet Skis or wet bikes. Boats exempt from registration requirements include those that do not use motors, and documented vessels (large boats that are issued a marine document and registration through the U.S. Coast Guard). Vessels used solely by a city, county, state, or federal agency will be issued a certificate of registration and number at no charge.



At least you have an "official" link now! Sorry for the mis-statement.
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  #23  
Old 01-28-2007
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sailingdog,

First you say that the majority of shareholders have to be US citizens. Your words " the corporation must have majority US ownership". Now you drop that after I pointed out that this only applies to commercial vessels and rely on the fact that some officers of the corporation have to be US citizens. I have never disputed this. That's where the lawyers come in, they (US citizens in Delaware) are those officers but the "foreigner" is the majority shareholder and as such has control. The lawyer takes care of all the meetings and corporation records. All you have to do is pay. The folks I talked to were bitching about having to pay about $500 annually to the lawyer.

Here's my original post:
a "foreigner" can get a vessel documented as a US flag vessel. You just have to establish a US corporation. Lots of Deleware lawyers getting paid to do this. Also a non US citizen can now skipper a recreational US flag vessel. Under the old law you had to be a US citizen to skipper a US flag vessel. I'm talking about documented vessels.

You claimed this was "bad advice". Is there anything in the above statement that is not correct?
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Last edited by Vasco; 01-28-2007 at 11:49 AM.
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  #24  
Old 01-28-2007
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Vasco,

this advice that you are supporting is indeed bad. As a resident alien and noncitizen I have had my lawyer check this in the past, as I own or control different legal entities which are unrelated to boating but which I wanted to use as "owner" for both a boat and airplanes.

If you know people who have gone through a Delaware corporation and nominal corporate controllers to circumvent this restriction does not mean it is legal - it will work well until something goes wrong (i.e an insurance claim)

The letter of the law is pretty clear on this matter. Others have posted excerpts already in this thread, but the actual relevant text can be read at

United States Code 46, Sec. 802. Corporation, partnership, or association as citizen
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  #25  
Old 01-28-2007
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Zanshin,

Again you are confusing "shipping" and commercial vessels with recreational vessels.
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  #26  
Old 01-28-2007
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Perhaps I am confusing the two. Can you point me to the CFR which will clarify this? The laws that I have seen make no differentiation between citizenship requirements for recreational use and commercial use and vessel registration. If you can point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it as it would solve some complications that I currently have with registering my boat under a flag of convenience (red ensign British BVI).
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Last edited by Zanshin; 01-28-2007 at 01:40 PM.
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  #27  
Old 01-28-2007
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http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/faq.htm

From faq, USCG documentation rerquires US Citizenship.

Most if not all states will issue boat title and registration to a resident alien just as they do for auto title and registration.

State registration is suffcient for US and Canadian coastal waters.
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  #28  
Old 01-28-2007
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Otaga, I suspect that you can form a corporation with your wife, and as long as she owns 51% of the corporation, then it is a "US corporation" which can hold USCG documentation for the boat. Yes, that could raise liability issues as an asset of hers, but I also suspect any decent shyster lawyer could find some way to protect it further. If you've got enough money to worry about liability beyond her malpractice...you should probably have a shyster lawyer available to deal with some of those issues. There are all sorts of ways to protect assets, lawyers tend to know more about them than sailors. Perhaps a shell corporation (to make the asset hard to discover) and then the real corporation, which would be structured so as to give the minority partner (you) the right to buy the asset out immediately for another dollar at a future date, so if need be you could "pull the trigger" and seize the asset before anyone else did.

As a Resident Alien, you probably would have no problems simply putting state registration on the boat. Within the US, that's all anyone wants. You'd have to ask the Canadians how they feel about that, with the changes ongoing since 9/11 and reciprocal sniping about paperwork, those change from time to time.

Since you can establish chain of title up to your purchase, you should be able to document the vessel at a future date with whoever as long as you are still the owner--you'd be the only "missing" link in the chain. But again...you should check on that with the appropriate government or lawyers.
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  #29  
Old 01-28-2007
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Maybe you could form an S Corp with the boat and documentation. Then you can hold all the shares or split the shares with your wife 50/50
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  #30  
Old 01-28-2007
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corporate ownership of documented vessels

You can use a US corporation to hold title as long as
a majority (2 out of three) directors are citizens (your wife and one other citizen person) or if she is the only director
the chairman and CEO are citizens ( your wife could be both)
more than 50% of the stock is owned by your wife

the fact that you are using this "loophole" is okay because its written into the statute

you cannot own the vessel as a co-owner--all natural person owners have to be citizens

I myself would not use one of these internet services to set up a corporation and I would not use Delaware myself. There are lower cost jurisdictions (such as Wyoming) and you can go directly to the registered agents that do business in each state rather than paying for a layer of marketing.
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