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  #21  
Old 01-06-2002
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Difference in boat prices?

Thanks for the input dpinorm. I had been wondering if the way to go might have been to buy something like a new Beneteau First 40.7 and do some modifications to strengthen her and then after about 10 years sell her and get another new boat of the same type but the more I read the less I think this may the way to go. Also from reading the setsail site I am now thinking that perhaps I should be thinking about a bigger boat to begin with.

If it is convenient for you to do so I wonder if you could share some of the modifications that you are doing or if you have any books that you would recommend on the subject.

One last thing, you mention the motion of the boat is affected by a carbon mast for the better. I would have thought that having a heavier mast (I assume that the carbon rig is lighter) would give a higher moment of inertia and thus less motion (and less chance of knockdown and capsize). I know that I am not understanding something here (probably what is meant by motion?) and maybe someone could enlighten me?
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  #22  
Old 01-07-2002
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Difference in boat prices?

This whole business of motion is a very complex subject, but increasing the moment of interia slows the motion of a boat but increases the kinetic energy so that a boat with a heavier mast will roll (or pitch) more slowly but through a wider angle.

Most of us have gotten the basics of Motion Science from Marchaj''s book on seaworthiness or from someone who learned it from Tony''s book, BUT a lot has been learned since that book was written.

Probably the most critical factors in terms of comfort at sea, (beside length) is the height of the center of gravity (low is good), moment of interia, and the shape of the hull. But when you tall about a large moment of inertia above the the momentary roll axis, you are increasing the roll angle in order to gain a slightly slower motion. When you talk about a carbon spar, that lowers the center of gravity and moment of inertia pretty dramatically and so results in a smaller angle of roll or pitch albeit at a slower rate.

In studies of seasickness, there are clearly two factors that affect whether people get seasick, the amount of motion (roll or pitch angle) and the speed of accellerations of the motion. Individuals have differing tollerances to both. Some people have a small tollerance only for larger angles of motion while others have only a smaller tollerance for quick motion and still others have a small tollerance bor both.

There is a common misunderstanding about motion that any way that you can get greater inertia is good for seaworthiness and comfort able motion, so you see people moving weight to the bow and stern or up the mast. While these may slow motion slightly they can also decrease seaworthiness by making a boat more prone to pitchpole, take serious water over the deck and roll through dangerous angles. Now then adding weight deep on the keel, both increases inertia,and increases dampening and therefore reduces both roll rate and angle. But like everthing else there is a bit of a trade off to that as well.

Jeff
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  #23  
Old 01-08-2002
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Difference in boat prices?

From experience, I agree with the previous post regarding motion. Add to that my personal preference for performance and the carbon rig and light ends is an obvious conclusion for me.

There are two basic categories of modifications:

1) Those for the Admiral, like washer/dryer, ice maker, extra cabinets, custom fabrics etc. They always get done!

2) Those for the Captain. They get done with whatís left after 1).

I modify things like refrigeration, electric power production and management, and electronics. Not always because they arenít satisfactory the way they come, but just because after all these years Iím used to doing things in a way that works for me.

Spars, standing/running rigging, safety equipment and sails are the things that take up most of my effort. Especially on a carbon rig, itís not easy to add things that arenít designed in from the beginning.

My advice would be to read what you can, look at other boats and talk to their owners, and talk to vendors. In the end, I think the best route is to select vendors you trust and have them help you with your selections.
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Old 01-08-2002
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Difference in boat prices?

Thanks for the explanation Jeff. Just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly, did you mean faster rather than slower when you wrote "so results in a smaller angle of roll or pitch albeit at a slower rate." Thanks also for your book recommendation(and the ones on the other classic texts thread), sounds like something I need to add to the growing pile.

I took a look at the Rogue wave site, is that Laser 28 "Rugosa" the one you are selling?
http://www2.yachtworld.com/broker/br_listing_detail_handler.jsp?company=roguewave&bo at_id=886474
Very nice looking boat, I believe you when you say they are fast. As I mentioned my timeline for the boat I will be doing the offshore stuff in is 4-5 years (by then we will be based somewhere along the East coast). In the interim I will be based here in St Louis and have decided to get a racer in summer of 2003 to practice on Lake Michigan (basing it out of Chicago where my brother and future crew member for the Fastnet lives). Looks like a boat like the Laser 28 would be ideal.

I also saw the consultation service that is offered by Bob Perry, I don''t know what your relationship is if any to him but are you at liberty to comment on his services one way or the other? I will have allot of questions as I start to narrow down my choices and being able to e-mail him for what he is charging sounds like a great deal.
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Old 01-08-2002
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Difference in boat prices?

Thanks for the reply dpinorm, She who must be obeyed is thrilled to learn that she too will become an Admiral one day :-)

Mining the vendors for information sounds like a smart strategy, thanks.
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Old 01-09-2002
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Difference in boat prices?

Yes, Rugosa, is my Laser 28 that is for sale. She is currently under contract and got a very clean bill of health in survey on Monday. The Laser 28 has been a super boat for my use and has heald up extremely well.

I am not associated with RogueWave other than being friends with bernie, the owner of the company. bernie listed my boat on YachtWorld as a favor to me but is not acting as the broker, instead simply refering any inquiries to me to handle.

I have not been to bernie''s site in a while so I am not sure what services Bob Perry is offering. I think it is helpful to have reliable sources to kick around boat buying ideas with. You need to filter the advise a bit by knowing the sources preferences (Obviously in my case I have a very strong and obvious leaning toward higher performance and toward realistic boats for the venue that people actually will be sailing in.) Bob Perry''s bias (and its a good one in my book) is toward boats that have a lot of integrity for what they are. So when looking at traditional boats, he seems to review them relative to other traditional boats (i.e asking is this an honest high quality design for a traditional boat?). He also seems to do the same for more modern designs and race boats for that matter. Perry seems to have a personal preference for fast, simple performance cruisers but I really don''t know the man other than exchanging a few emails so I am simply judging him on his writings. I would suggest that you email him and ask about his services and see if it gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling.

Regards
Jeff
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