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  #11  
Old 02-20-2007
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CONGRATULATIONS!
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You should be very excited. I don't blame you, I only hope that someday I could own a yacht. I'll keep playing the lotto until than.

P.S. you will find that we all give each other lots of crap around here. Its all part of the game. Nobody is exempt from it, except maybe Opti Fred. Don't take it personally.
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  #12  
Old 02-20-2007
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And as soon as you start the upgrades for it, the store salesman will also refer to it as a yacht - they chargre more for yachts...
I may be wrong but I thought the grid was tabbed and glassed in - most damage should be visible if you can find the right access point but some surveyors will only go so far in crawling around. I had one surveyor tell me that he didn't open compartments - it was a short relationship.
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Old 02-20-2007
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Also the broker told me that delamination is common on the decks of these
boats. Not due to damage or rot, just that the top skin comes away in random spots from the ply. Most guys ignore it until it comes up on a survey, tho some drill holes and squirt in epoxy.

Overall is this a common problem on older boats? The broker took pains to explain that he wasn't talking about delam cause by water intrusion and rot, which has to be dealt with.
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  #14  
Old 02-20-2007
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Hoffa...yeah...minor voids or delam on older cored decks is fairly common and easily fixed with an injection and some touch up. Surveyor will be able to tell the difference.
On the other issue...If there is currently no delam on the stringers and the boat is 20 years old, I wouldn't worry to much about a grounding doing major damage any more than on any other boat. Believe me...a 20 year old boat has been aground before!! Good luck!!
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Old 02-22-2007
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Hoffa - we are going through this process right now - first time using a broker. The broker had a listing spec that noted everything that was included with the boat, and we are buying the boat on the condition that all equipment on this list is in good working order. We asked that it be attached to and form part of the offer. We also found that the brokers here hold back ten percent of the sale price until after the completion of a successful sea trial. Perhaps your broker could do the same (if it is not already standard practice with them).

This is in addition to the survey of course.

Another thing, up here in Ontario there are a lot of boats on the market that have been brought up from the US. Out of twelve boats that we looked at, we know that at least two of them had been through Hurricane Katrina. In one case, that fact was the first thing the broker told us, in the second case, the broker was not as forthcoming.

Based on that, when we settled on a boat to buy, we asked for written confirmation that the boat had not had any hull damage and was not a salvage vessel.

It is a good idea to ask around about the broker that you are dealing with. Some of them are a bit more on the up-and-up than others. Also would suggest you be more careful with a boat that has been taken as a trade-in (where the broker is the owner of the boat rather than the agent of the owner), especially one as popular as a CS. The boats have a certain market value, and if the broker is selling a trade-in within that range, it is likely that the trade-in allowance given to the original owner was lower than market value. While it is possible that the owner was willing to dump the boat in order to get something else, most boatowners have a pretty good idea of what their boat is worth, and will try to realise that amount from the sale, hence if they let it go for twenty five percent under market, it is likely to have problems.

Last edited by Sailormann; 02-22-2007 at 12:22 AM.
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Old 02-23-2007
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Sailorman those are good ideas. I think I'll add something about guarantees that the vessel has not been used as a charter as well. Nor has had major structural repairs done.
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Old 02-23-2007
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Hoffa-
C&Cs, which are generally considered good boats, also have a reputation for what is called the "C&C smile", a slight crack at the keel/hull joint simply because they are built lighter for speed, and the keels often flex. And, if you run 'em around with a deep racing keel, you break the rear stringer, same way your broker mentioned.
Decks delaminating simply from old age is something else though, it means the deck materials either weren't clean or were improperly applied, so they failed from simple age. That can be fixed--but is a sign someone wasn't on top of the construction overall. Not a stopper, just a warning sign.

If your sales contract doesn't mention it, you might want to add something about the seller not having any knowledge of concealed defects or major repairs, or having concealed any of the same. That covers you against things like a shiny new bottom paint job--hiding 100 blisters filled with auto body putty.

AFAIK "Full disclosure" doesn't apply to boat sales, but some states have mandated it for home sales now, recognizing it can be valuable.
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Old 02-23-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoffaLives
Thanks all, this is exactly what I was looking for. One thing about the CS36 that I wonder about. The broker has sold these since the beginning, and he talked (quite frankly) about hull stringer delam problems that can occur after a grounding. Apparently when the forward lower edge of the keel hits something, the leverage causes the back upper edge to oilcan the hull, breaking away the grid, which is tabbed (not glued) into place. I have not heard this being a problem with other makes. The broker's answer is that with different boats, you will have problems after a good grounding but they just happen in different places. On this boat it's along the grid, on a hunter it would be elsewhere.

Any comments about this? Everything I have read about Cs talks about the quality of the boat.
If a CS is grounded hard, the force can crack or break a grid stringer's hull glassing. While I would not consider it a common condition, it happens, and can be repaired. I don't think it a big repair. My boat had a repair to the stringer in front of the keel which our surveyor felt left it as good as new.
I guess I would recommend that the surveyor take up the cabin floor so he/she can give them a good check, that takes only a few minutes if you bring an electric drill, or ask the owner to remove the sole screws in advance.

As to deck delamination, that is not a subject in the CS lore, although CSes have the usual concern about leaking developing around deck fittings, some of which are through cored sections. Specific panels (seahood/cockpit lockers/anchor locker) are subject to delimination due to such fittings. Many concientious owners have removed all deck fittings and re-installed them through epoxy paste core plugs. Nothing but the best for the baby.

Don't confuse very high quality design and construction with perfect, the great thing about such boats, is that they are worth the effort to make perfect.

Last edited by sailingfool; 02-23-2007 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 02-23-2007
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What i did like when I investigated this further, is to find out that the grid is glassed in place and not glued like they are now. While I know modern adhesives are the cat's meow, I wonder if they will be in 26 years time. The physical construction of glassing in a grid is something that should not come apart with age, as long as you don't go plowing into reefs. There's only so much a manufacturer can be expected to do to compensate for operator error. And if they did make that part of the hull even stronger, likely all that would happen is the force would be transmitted somewhere else and something else would let go.
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Old 02-23-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
Hoffa-
C&Cs, which are generally considered good boats, also have a reputation for what is called the "C&C smile", a slight crack at the keel/hull joint simply because they are built lighter for speed, and the keels often flex. And, if you run 'em around with a deep racing keel, you break the rear stringer, same way your broker mentioned.
Decks delaminating simply from old age is something else though, it means the deck materials either weren't clean or were improperly applied, so they failed from simple age. That can be fixed--but is a sign someone wasn't on top of the construction overall. Not a stopper, just a warning sign.

If your sales contract doesn't mention it, you might want to add something about the seller not having any knowledge of concealed defects or major repairs, or having concealed any of the same. That covers you against things like a shiny new bottom paint job--hiding 100 blisters filled with auto body putty.

AFAIK "Full disclosure" doesn't apply to boat sales, but some states have mandated it for home sales now, recognizing it can be valuable.
FWIW, I don't think the C&C smile is due to keel flexing, its just cosmetic filler that falls out of the leading edge of the keel/stub joint. C&C keels dont flex in a material way, describing the source of the smile as such may give readers the wrong impression of the marque.

The issue of deck delamination due to water ingress from fittings attached through cored decks, from my understanding, just reflects the way most boats were built, from the first days of fiberglass, pretty much up to now. There may have been some builder exceptions back when, none that I specfically know of. Unfortunately wet decks weren't a concern until aging decks started to get wet, as owners removed/added fittings or original caulking deteriated...

It would be interesting to know how current builders deal with this issue - doing deck fittings properly today should be a hidden sign of basic quality - maybe some owners of new boats know the status of this subject, I do not.

Last edited by sailingfool; 02-23-2007 at 05:28 PM.
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