SailNet Community

SailNet Community (
-   Boat Review and Purchase Forum (
-   -   The Search for the First Boat - long learning curves (

pmoyer 02-26-2007 02:57 PM

The Search for the First Boat - long learning curves
(This is going to be pretty long - apologies in advance....)

I've been looking for the first boat for about a year. I'm still looking, but I've learned a lot in the search, and from this board, so I wanted to share progress and thoughts, in case it helps some other new sailors in their searches.

It seems like the forums get a regular flow of "what boat should I buy" questions, and the answers are always the same. I think part of the problem is that when all you've sailed is 20' or smaller, you just don't know what kinds of questions to ask, so you end up with these vague descriptions and "requirements" that the folks here patiently address, over and over.

Over time, and with learning, my "requirements" have changed pretty dramatically. I read here, I post here (sometimes), and think about the answers. Even the flame wars between the senior members are educational, because they define the problems and the different viewpoints.

Rule 1: Do Not Hurry.

I wanted to have a boat last summer. Now, I *might* have a boat this summer. If it isn't until next summer, that's ok. Better to take your time and let your wants and needs evolve with your learning.

If I had 200K in my pocket when I went to the Annapolis boat show last fall, I'd probably have a Delphia 37 right now. It would have been a mistake. It's not because the Delphia 37 is a bad boat (I still love the design - she's a great boat), but because it's not a good fit for the kind of sailing I plan to do.

Why? Lots of reasons. But for the experienced sailors here, I'll say that if I had 200K in my pocket right now, I'd want to get either a Valiant 32 or a Southern Cross 31. From that, you can tell what kind of sailing I want to do, and why the Delphia would have been the wrong boat for me.

Those two are the wrong first boats, too, because I don't have enough experience to be setting off on ocean passages. Those will be my second boats, maybe, because I *want* to set off on ocean passages.

The point is, if you hurry into the decision with neither sufficient experience nor book learning, you'll probably end up making a huge expensive mistake. Just last week I finished a book (Lin and Larry Pardey's "Care and Feeding of the Sailing Crew") that made me significantly rethink three "requirements" that I previously had.

Rule 2: Be Honest With Yourself.

The two most often used responses, in this forum, to, "what boat should I buy," are, "what kind of sailing do you want to do," and, "where are you going to be sailing?" Listen to this, and be honest with yourself. It has HUGE bearing on the kind of boat you should be considering. I would say that a third question should be, "how much experience do you have?"

What kind of sailing do I want to do? Blue water. But not right away. I'll be daysailing, weekending, and doing three or four week-long trips every season. Even though I *want* to do blue water passagemaking, it's not something I should consider with my first boat (much as I hate to write that).

Where am I going to be sailing? On the Chesapeake. Exclusively. Ok, maybe a little foray once in a while up to the Jersey Shore, or down to Virginia, but coastal cruising at the most. The Valiants, Pacific Seacraft, and others are not the right boat for that location and kind of sailing.

Honesty in these respects is critical. It will keep you from making huge and costly mistakes.

For example, I will be sailing with my wife and two teenage daughters. As much as I would like a racing boat, the motion will not make the others very happy....

Rule 3: Don't worry about the money.

Don't shop, initially, based on money. It doesn't hurt to look at what's available on YachtWorld based on your expected budget, but that's not how you should make your list of possible boats.

The way to make the list is to learn. Read. Talk to sailors. Go to shows and look at new boats and gadgets. Go to yards and look at boats on the hard. Always try to learn. I'll include a list of books that I've found extremely helpful.

It's much, MUCH better to understand the KIND of boat you need before trying to find one you can afford. Note that I said "kind" rather than "make." This goes back to Rule 2. Deciding what kind of boat best suits your sailing style and location will greatly determine what makes of boats you should consider.

This is also related to the book list, below. Reading Ted Brewer's Understanding Boat Design, for example, dramatically helped me understand how hull shape influences motion and tenderness.

After you've determined the kind of boat you need, you can start looking for a make, year, and condition that fits your budget and skills.

Rule 4: Read, think, and learn.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone like me post "I'm trying to decide between a Catalina 30 and a Westsail 32 - help." This is a sure sign that someone hasn't done enough research.

It seems there are four categories of understanding that you need in order to buy a boat and be successful with her. You must understand: yourself; sailing fundamentals; sails - theory, design, and set; and boat design.

I don't think there are many books that help with the "understanding yourself" part. That's on you. There are several that will make you think about the kind of sailing you want to do, and how your relationship with your boat will work out. I include here "inspirational sailing" books - those that fuel the dream (aka obsession, insanity, etc).

Ellen MacArthur. Taking on the World.
Richard Henderson. Singlehanded Sailing.

Books that address sailing fundamentals:

US Sailing. Basic Keelboat.
Bob Bond. The Handbook of Sailing.

Books that address Sails:

Emiliano Marino. The Sailmaker's Apprentice.
Don Casey. Sails and Canvaswork.

Books that address boat design, maintanance, and handling:

Ted Brewer. Understanding Boat Design.
John Vigor. Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat.
John Vigor. Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere.
William Seifert and Dan Spurr. Offshore Sailing.
Nigel Calder. The Cruising Companion.
Brian Gilbert. Fix it and Sail!
Don Casey. Any of his sailboat repair books, particularly Good Old Boat.
Lin and Larry Pardey. The Care and Feeding of the Sailing Crew.

There are a few others, but this is a good list (as is the required reading list on this site).

Rule 5: Rethink your requirements.

A huge amount of what you think you need when you start looking for a boat is really stuff you want. The folks here are amazingly knowlegable, and there's a huge volume of literature available. Make a list of what you think you need, but be ready to change that list when you find out you didn't know what you were talking about.

Looking back, I've pretty dramatically changed my "requirements" for my first boat. I started out with:

Roller furling.
35+ feet.
Propane stove.
Wheel steering.
Decent speed and pointing.

Now I'm down to:

Decent speed and pointing.


Diesel - yes, they're nice to have because of the gas fumes and the global availability of parts. It is no longer a requirement, though, because there are a lot of boats that I'd like to have (example: Pearson Triton 28) that generally don't have diesels. I might be missing a great Bay sailer, which is what I really need it for, if I restrict my search to diesel auxilliaries.

Roller furling - yes, it's nice to have when you're single handing and need to reduce sail. From reading, though, there are some significant disadvantages: UV degradation, luff compression, difficulty setting partially furled sail, windage aloft, weight forward, cost, and complexity (something else to break). So is a roller furler "required" for daysailing or weekending on the Chesapeake? Nope. It doesn't take that long to hank on a sail.... I've seen some nice boats (older Sabers, Tritons, P30s, Tartan 30s) that don't have roller furling, and they tend to be less expensive to buy.

35+ feet. The longer the boat, the heavier she is and the more easily she'll handle chop or larger seas (to broadly generalize). Also, more room below for family and friends. My wife really likes about 37 feet. The Pardeys, though, sail on smaller boat. More room below means you'll tend to load her down with "stuff," or at least I will. Smaller boats are cheaper to moor, haul, paint, and clean. Smaller boats have fewer systems, which means more time sailing and less time checking wiring, changing filters, fixing the plumbing, tinkering with the electronics, varnishing teak, etc. So for daysailing and weekending, do I REALLY need a boat over 35 feet, even for my wife and two daughters? I don't think so. The Triton 28 has four bunks and a head. That's all we really need.

Propane stove. Kind of a silly requirement, but I really detest alcohol stoves. It doesn't matter, since the only time we'd really use it is when we anchor out, and I can use my portable propane camp stove for that. Again, not a requirement, but a nice to have.

Wheel steering. Salingdog really surprised me when he challenged this one. He's absolutely right. There are advantages to tiller steering, particularly on a smaller boat! More room in the cockpit when at anchor (with the tiller raised), easier to move about under sail, one fewer thing to go wrong and require fixing, and better control of the boat (or so they say). Some beautiful extremely seaworthy boats have tiller steering: Westsail 32 and Southern Cross 31, for example. It just makes sense.

So I'm left with seaworthy and decent performance. Seaworthy because I might be completely in love with her and want to go offshore in her, and I don't want the design or construction to preclude that. Decent performance because the quicker she is, the farther I can take the family on a weekend. The second "requirement" is not nearly as important as the first. Generally, I think a more "seaworthy" boat will have a kinder motion for my seasickness-prone wife.

I'm currently looking at a couple of Triton 28s. Good price, good hull design, pretty to look at (IMO). Very, very simple systems. And small enough that if I want to try my hand at lofting my own sails, it's not an unreasonable thing to do.

Anyway, this is kind of the "lessons learned" so far in my boat search. I hope it's helpful to somebody....

PBzeer 02-26-2007 03:07 PM

Very good and well thought out post. Hopefully, it will be read by those looking for that first boat, and, heeded. After all, a dream is only as good as the reality that goes into making it happen. You seem well on your way.


sailhog 02-26-2007 03:27 PM

It's an interesting little trip you take when you're in the process of buying your first boat. I was going to go a little smaller than what I initially bought, but a friend pointed out that it's wise to keep the number of boat transactions to a minimum. Buying something at the high end of your means runs contrary to the conventional wisdom, but it's better to grow into your vessel over the course of a couple of years rather than buy, sell, and then buy again. This is a good thread...

bestfriend 02-26-2007 03:34 PM

Excellent post. I could not agree with you more about taking your time and being realistic about what you will be doing with the boat. It was my first time buying a boat (other than Hobies) and I should have taken longer, but sometimes you just don't know what you will need until you take the leap and learn along the way, spend time with the boat. So, yes, it is crucial to sail on many boats as much as you can, make friends and spend time on their boats, tell the broker to leave you alone in the boat for a half hour (it helps). Sail in some local One Design races on types of boats you are considering. Lots of clubs have raft ups during the season and you can look at all the different variations of the same boat. I think I was very lucky to pick such a good boat after only six months, with my limited sailing experience. But already, my criteria has changed, and my next boat will be different in several ways. For a first boat owner, I have one piece of advice. If you are only daysailing, lean more towards performance, if you are going to be doing a lot of overnights, lean more towards livability. Be more comfortable while you learn, you won't notice the performance difference in the beginning. Live and learn, at least I am happy to be sailing my own boat!

camaraderie 02-26-2007 03:39 PM

PMoyer...excellent post. I'm sure it will be helpful to some new buyers!
I will take a moment to comment on each of your "rules":

Rule 1: Do Not Hurry. I don't think most people will have your patience or passion for learning...though one can't argue with your premise. I think most folks can make a decision on a first boat within a few months and it will be hard to go too far wrong unless they plan on going blue water cruising. As long as they plan to stay close in shore and get a good survey, almost any boat will be fine. The more prepared you are with understanding your real needs...the BETTER the choice will be but I'd still take a Valiant 42 on the ChesBay rather than wait a year to settle on a Catalina. Worst case...I sell the Valiant and buy the Catalina.

Rule 2: Be Honest With Yourself. Another good one...but one of the recurring themes here is folks wanting to go blue-water and cross oceans when then don't know what that is all about AND don't like it when they try it. There's a reason Georgetown Harbour in the Bahamas is called "Chicken Harbor" and why south Florida has a lot of nicely equipped cruising sailboats for sail...lightly used! People bought these 'cause they honestly believed they would enjoy the cruising life and long distance sailing. Many don't.

Rule 3: Don't worry about the money.
Here I disagree...if the goal is long distance cruising/living aboard. In my experience, most people have to worry about the money and cannot afford the loss that comes with a two or more boat approach to finally getting the "right boat". I agree with the need to really research the right type of boat for the planned cruising agenda and then find a suitable one that is affordable. But if a Tayana37 is the right boat...there is no need to get a Hunter 28 to learn on first in the "Bay" Not doing so will save a LOT of money and buy a lot of rum drinks somewhere nice!!

Rule 4: Read, think, and learn.
Yeah...I agree...but it is interesting that I've never read even ONE of the books on your list....and I've read a lot of sailing stuff over the years. I think that the CG boating course for sailing is very useful for beginners and Calder's stuff on diesels and electrical systems is invaluable but the best advice I can give is just to read a lot about sailors and boats following your own interests. There is so much more available on line today as well that can short cut the learning curve....and not just here. What you don't learn from reading...the boat and the sea will teach you! <g>

Rule 5: Rethink your requirements.
I do think you have to be open to other ideas...but I also think that it is a mistake to make too many sacrifces to things you would like to have in boat. ALSO....make sure "your" requirements include your family's wants and needs. A "Pardey" approach may work for some couples but they are rare. It may be better to change your cruising plans...than give up too much comfort/lifestyle stuff in order to "live your dream". As one woman said to us..."I am letting him live his dream of going cruising...but I did not agree to go camping for 5 years."

Hope this adds a bit to the search process for some of you.

goose327 02-26-2007 03:43 PM

I guess I did it all wrong,,LOL.
I've had powerboats all my life, LOTS of powerboats. A while back(about 10 years) I saw a Sunfish for sale, CHEAP. Not knowing a thing about sailing, I bought it. I taught myself to sail it in a couple hours but never really got excited about it. In my mind the little lateen was all I ever wanted to do with blowboats, in fact I figured if anyone ever gave me one I'd lop off the pole in the middle and put an outboard on it.
A couple years ago, for whatever reason, I was looking at a local "for sale" website and saw an add for a Venture 23. I Googled it and fell in love. I went and looked at her, but couldn't afford it at the time(and he was only asking 1800). I had a minor case of "the bug" and kept looking at SV's on Craigslist, in the local papers, but nothing got my heartrate up like that dam V23. I got some bills paid off and was flush again a month or so ago and went to look at the boat again,, IT WAS GONE. I spent weeks trying to track her down and finally found that she had been donated to the Senior Center herein town and had been auctioned off. I found the guy who won her and asked if he'd be willing to part with her. After hearing how I felt about her, he said sure, why not and the rest is history. I now own the boat of my dreams, have no idea what I'm doing, but having a BALL figuring it all out. You guys think too much,,LOL,, J/K.

Faster 02-26-2007 03:47 PM

Great analysis, should be required reading for all those who post the vague "which boat.... " queries.

Nice timeline on your "attitude adjustments" too, as you were able to realize which "requirements" were truly deal-breakers and which, in reality, should not be.

One comment re: tiller vs wheel - I'm happy with either, but have found that for longer passages, or long boards on the same tack, a well designed wheel arrangement lends itself to a larger variety of comfortable positions to drive from. (eg, I gota bit of a "crick" in my neck after sailing 2 weeks in the trades, same tack, same heading pretty much, on a boat with a tiller.)

bestfriend 02-26-2007 03:51 PM

That's what its all about Goose! I like the "Just get out there" approach. Oh, and check out the new cover of good old boat, very similar to your V23.

sailhog 02-26-2007 04:00 PM


Originally Posted by goose327
I now own the boat of my dreams, have no idea what I'm doing, but having a BALL figuring it all out

Goose, that's what it's all about, baby. I like you story...

camaraderie 02-26-2007 04:02 PM

Goose...yer right man! Getting out on a boat in safe waters is the best way to learn and have fun!! (Keep a GPS in yer pocket though with your home waypoint...If we find ya out there, we'll point you in the right direction!! <g>)

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:19 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
(c) LLC 2000-2012

For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome