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  #21  
Old 03-30-2007
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RickBowman is an unknown quantity at this point
I miscalculated once by meeting the surveyor at the boat, out of state without going aboard and inspecting it myself first. The owner misrepresented the condition of the vessel over the phone and by e-mail. The posted images did not show the deck and hull delamination or the dozens of other deficiencies. After I called the owner and told him that the deal was off, survey failed, he wanted to know what offer that I would make on the boat. I told him that in my opinion, not the surveyors, that the vessel was a constructive loss. He then asked for a copy of the survey to be mailed to him so that he would know what to fix, I said just as soon as I see a check for half the cost of the survey it would be mailed to him. No checkie...no survey. The survey cost $400.00, which was a bargain, but if I would have gone aboard first, I never would have requested the survey, as the problem moster would have reared it's ugly head and I would have driven back. Boat US recommends not to travel far to look at a boat for sale.
Cardiacpaul, you are not an ass or full of crap. A qualified survey is the only way to go.
BTW, the owner never sent a check.
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  #22  
Old 03-30-2007
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sailingfool will become famous soon enough
Use a local broker

Your dilemma comes from finding this boat yourself - now you need to figure out whether its worth your time and money to visit. If you were using a local broker to do the search for you, you should be able to rely on his expertise, and his ability to extract and evaluate facts from the listing broker, to make your decision. The listing broker likely only has this one shot at selling you a boat, he will want you to look at this boat, come hell or high water. If you were working with a local broker, if he doesn't sell you this boat, he'll still get to sell you the next one - he's much more likely to give you good advice. If he says to go look at this boat, and its a dog, he knows you can pick another area broker to work with going forward. He has something to lose if he loses your goodwill. The good brokers are professional and have forgotten a lot more about boats than most of us will ever know. You should be using one, doing so does cost you anymore in the final deal. (I have a strong opinion about this based on my last extended boat search where I DIDN"T use a local broker - did a lot of avoidable footwork and travel.)

Meanwhile, I'd lean on the listing broker for more info - have him shoot a CD full of digital pictures, which only takes an hour or two, get a copy of the last survey - they need for you to spend time and money, get them to do some footwork for you. Then you need to make the trip before you make an offer...

Last edited by sailingfool; 03-30-2007 at 10:17 AM.
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  #23  
Old 03-30-2007
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Ok, here is CD's opinion on strategy, which probably mimicks Cams:

You have no business putting an offer on a boat before you have seen it. Your broker can give you an idea on how much flexibility the other guy has... but that is all it is. Buying a boat is more than just signing the papers on closing day, it is the countless travelling and looking and researching. All of this costs money (directly or indirectly). The odds of finding the perfect "Bluewater" boat right next door that is the best boat for you and your fam is rediculously small. If we were talking a Catalina 320 or a small Hunter or Bene or Jeauneau... even IP. I would say the odds are not too bad. But a used BW boat that is the perfect one for you and your spouse sitting in the slip beside you (or within a close sail) is pretty darned small. I don't care if you live in Annapolis or Ft. Lauderdale or San Diego.

Also, 3k is not that bad for shipping the boat. And unless you have a buddy next door who is your identical twin, I don't get the point of sending someone else to look at it. THeir opinion (before you have seen it) has no bearing on what you would personally think.

Personal Experience:

When my wife and I were shopping for a Nord & Krogen, we put more miles on the car and plane tickets than I think the damned boats even cost!!! We would always preface the conversation to the broker as: If I drive/fly down there and there is something major wrong with this boat, I AM GONIG TO BE PISSED AT YOU! There are some used car dealers out there, but most brokers hold a reputation and will tell you the goods and the bads (to a point). I have, in general, had good experiences with boats. Most of the boats I have looked at were 400-750k, so they may have a better broker than what a Catalina 22 broker might be. Still, in general (when you tell them the money and expense you are going through), they are upfront (again, to a point ).

One last thought: Kris, the boys and I ENJOYED boat shopping and travelling. It was like an exciting vacation every time we went. It was fun for us, because I love boats and enjoy shopping for them and looking at them. We were always serious, but with only ONE exception, it was always enjoyable.

Hope that helps...

- CD

PS As I am sure you are wondering, the ONE exception was when the broker was not honest and the boat was a floating (barely) derelict. Luckily, that boat was with a days drive of our house. So, for every rule, there is an exception.
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  #24  
Old 03-30-2007
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Yado is on a distinguished road
Crackes in the Head, etc.

Regarding travel: Jet Blue, Southwest, Airtrans, etc., make it affordable to fly to about any boat place in the US for a few hundred dollars.
I'm committed to the idea that boat shopping should be fun and educational, and if (when) it hurts either financially or emotionally, then I'd recommend chartering which is always a blast and less costly. It's all part of a process of learning and gaining experience.
Flew to Rhode Island spring last year to see a broker recommended boat-incredibly clean fresh water boat that came from upstate New York- made an offer and a broker beat me in the bidding. Last fall, I met a sailor/broker who knew the boat and he told me it had been "holed", flooded, repaired, then shipped to the coast where no buyer would know it's history. However, he said the boat was infamous and the brokers I worked with had to know. He knew the owner made a deal with the selling broker to not reveal the info. As in any sales business, there are good brokers and bad.
Cracks in the head: We flew to Chicago to look at a boat and found a significant crack in the liner in the head. We took picture and compared it to the pics on YW. Either the crack occured after the YW picture was taken or it was photoshopped....and it was listed on YW as a 1999 but was actually 1994. Still, we had a great day. We came home, regrouped, chartered in St. Thomas a few weeks ago and are looking forward to sailing our small boat and shopping. It's all good. There will always be another boat to buy.
IMHO you can't skip the steps: Talk to your broker, fly to look at the boat if air is under $300 maybe (works for me), make an offer, then hire a trusted surveyor and negotiate. My $.02.
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  #25  
Old 03-31-2007
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RickBowman is an unknown quantity at this point
Your dilemma comes from finding this boat yourself - now you need to figure out whether its worth your time and money to visit.

Sailingfool,

In fact I did find the boat that I purchased, but it was the last one of three on my short list, inspecting the cheapest first.

I was way to civilized to that misleading owner of the Gulf 32 that was for sale in Sturgeon Bay WI. I had discussed the condition with the dealer that was representing the vessel that failed to provide me with the finer points of, as the highly quailified surveyor refered to it "The derelect of Sturgeon Bay".

Rick

Yado,

I like your style, sailing is suppose to be fun!

Rick

Last edited by RickBowman; 03-31-2007 at 09:04 PM.
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  #26  
Old 04-03-2007
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dont believe everything you see in photos. ive been looking for a nice coastal cruiser for some time now and taken several trips to the coast to look at boats that looked great in yacht world and the broker assured me they were as advertised. well, 600 to 1500 miles later, non were as described and the pictures looked like different boats. now before i go looking, i ask who wants to go swimming if im being lied to. you're a damn fool if you make an offer or buy sight unseen i dont care who tells you its a great deal. jmho. j.d.
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  #27  
Old 04-03-2007
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Umm.. Photos are not really a good form of evidence, unless you know who took them and when. One boat I went to look at with a friend, I had seen the photos...and when we saw the boat, it was obvious the photos were from at least a year before...and the boat had changed significantly in that time.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
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  #28  
Old 04-03-2007
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"and the broker assured me "
This is probably the reason you don't find many Amish boat brokers.
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  #29  
Old 04-03-2007
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While some brokers are very ethical and honest, there are those who will mis-represent the boat to try and get buyers in to see it.
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Telstar 28
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

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  #30  
Old 04-04-2007
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As far as negotiating a deal, knowledge is power. If you haven't seen the boat, crawled around on and in every square foot, you will be negotiating from a weaker position than the seller. Also, going through the boats is fun. If you're missing that, you're missing one of the best parts of the buying process.

Regarding making a decision on if this boat is right for you; I was considering buying a certain boat, everything looked good. This boat is listed as having more than 6 feet of head room, and it does. Then I sat down in the salon. Where the cabin roof steps down to the deck met the back of my head so I couldn't sit up straight at the table. I'm only 5' 6" so I don't hit my head on too many things but this boat would not have been right for me. The only way to know for sure is to see it for yourself.

Why does this boat seem like a great deal? Is the grass really greener elsewhere? Ask yourself; if this boat is such a great deal, why hasn't someone local bought it? If it's a good buyer's market where this boat is, maybe a trip is worthwhile, not just to see this boat, but to see this boat and perhaps a dozen others.
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Last edited by CapnHand; 04-04-2007 at 10:04 AM.
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