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Purchase strategy advice

4K views 30 replies 17 participants last post by  hellosailor 
#1 ·
Hi all;

My wife and I are shopping for a bluewater boat for cruising. I have found a vessel that has peaked both of our interests. The hull was professionally built, what looks to be a great offshore design. We really like the hull and on-deck layout. It has a simple, but robust sloop rig.
The interior was owner-finished to spartan standards. Essentially, they finished to boat as a coastal cruiser, and outfitted minimally. The interior, while funtional is not 100% complete, and would need some reworking. There is little in the way of extended cruising gear - no autopilot, no windvane, nor dodger, bimini, proper refrigeration. Only two working sails. The net result is that is is a great start for an inexpensive bluewater boat, but not a very attactive boat for somebody shopping for weekender.

The boat looks to have had very limited use, and it was finished in the mid 90s, so it looks very clean.

So here is my dilemma. I have looked at many pics, and had a long discussion with the broker. No alarms are sounding. This is a lower priced boat to begin with, but I feel that it would need to come down another 30% before it would make sense for us (we would need spend ~$3k to ship it for starters.) I am hesitant to spend the $$$ for both of us to fly in, rent a car, to see the boat, without knowing that we could purchase the boat for something that makes sense for us.

So it it were you, how would you proceed? I have several ideas, but instead of stating them upfront, I would like to hear your ideas first.

Thanks in advance,
Chris
 
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#2 ·
Usually, you check the boat out first, to see if you want to pay for a survey. Prior to the survey, you make an offer, contingent on the survey. Chances are, the seller will counter offer. Once a pre-survey price has been reached, you schedule the survey, including haulout and seatrial. Also, any specialized surveys such as engine or rigging. Once the survey has been completed, you go over the report, than make an offer based on the results of the survey.

Of course, you can make an offer that to you is reasonable, and see what happens, explaining your situation. It is though, hard, when you haven't seen the boat in person.

Good luck,
 
#3 ·
Usually..

Yes, I would go the usual route if the boat was local, but it is not. I'm not keen on this approach, as it would require at least two trips for us to the boats location, without knowing if it was going to work out.

Chris

PBzeer said:
Usually, you check the boat out first, to see if you want to pay for a survey. Prior to the survey, you make an offer, contingent on the survey. Chances are, the seller will counter offer. Once a pre-survey price has been reached, you schedule the survey, including haulout and seatrial. Also, any specialized surveys such as engine or rigging. Once the survey has been completed, you go over the report, than make an offer based on the results of the survey.

Of course, you can make an offer that to you is reasonable, and see what happens, explaining your situation. It is though, hard, when you haven't seen the boat in person.

Good luck,
 
#5 ·
Reputable designer, and I am checking out the builder - broker says they have a good reputation.

I am more interested in talking about purchase strategies, So any comments of alternatives to the usual progression of events leading to a purchase?

hellosailor said:
You don't mention the make of the boat, or whether it is home-built. "Bluewater" can mean many things, but unless there is a known and reputable builder and designer behind the boat--you don't know what you've really got. Much less how it will handle in seas offshore.
 
#6 ·
Without more details, it's hard to give useful advice. Please give the designer and builder names, the hull material, the length LOA/LWL, the beam, the sail area and the displacement, along the keel type, engine type/HP, tankage and mast height.

Seriously.

In a world where I've heard Hunter 33s, a boat I would charitably describe as a moon boot, called "bluewater", I am inherently suspicious of such terms in the absence of dimensional facts. Also, what the broker says about "reputation" is akin to what the teenaged boy says to his girlfriend about the odds of getting pregnant: regardless, someone's getting f****d.

I bought a similar "finish her off" boat (as opposed to fix her up) and I spent a lot of money having her launched, surveyed and sailed before I decided I could finish the job. On the bright side, I would rather put in the latest amp-sipping electronics in a boat where nothing like that existed than just rip out old electronics, dozens of feet of rotten wire and loads of stinky hose.

Do you have any pictures? There are people here who know vast amounts about what makes a decent bluewater cruiser and can extrapolate as much from a boat's lines.

Your purchase strategy will be dictated by whether it IS a bluewater boat, won't it? If it is, and that's what you want, go the "conditional on survey" route, because all the bad things that will uncover are bargaining chips to get the price closer to your comfort zone. The $500-700 is "ante up" money to play in this game and should be part of your calculations.
 
#7 ·
So this is a "kit boat" not a home-built boat?

The usual progression of events (offers, surveys, escrow) is what is usual because it is what usually works for both sides. Any offer you can think of is valid for you, the only question is, what will the seller accept?

If you are trying to deal by remote control and the airfare is a big issue, that may be a reason to back off. Any "real deal" on a boat will be sold pretty quickly on the local market, unless there's something oddball enough to keep the boat from being sold. And I don't think you'll find that out by remote control.
 
#8 ·
If you're not going to look at before making an offer, and since making an offer is the only way to have any idea of the actual cost, then it seems the only alternative you have is to make an offer based on your 30% less than the asking price, and go from there. I would imagine they'll either reject it, or counter offer, and then you'll have to decide whether to go see it. Not a situation I would recommed, particularly without more info on the boat.
 
#9 ·
The first step in your purchase strategy should be to develop a thorough knowledge of the various builders who make the kind of boat that you want to sail. I don't mean to sound like a wise ass, but you seem to have the cart before the horse in this case.
Sailhog
 
#10 ·
The broker may not be an good source for information, as he may or may not be unbiased. He does have a financial stake in the sale of the boat.

Owner finished interiors can be really good to really bad, depending on the skills of the owner. Have you seen the boat in person yet? If not, then I would recommend at least one of you go see the boat in person.

The appearance of a boat in photos and the prescence of the same boat in person can be very different. If, after you have seen the boat in person, you still feel it is a viable purchase, make an offer somewhat below what you want to pay for the boat, and see what the owner says.

One of three things can happen: 1) he tells you to get lost, 2) he accepts, or 3) he counters with a different number. In cases 1 & 2, it is easy... you're done... in case 3, you and he will have to see if you can find a middle ground that is acceptable....

I wouldn't make an offer on it sight unseen. When you do go to see it... bring a copy of Don Casey's Sailboat Maintenance manual and go through the check list on inspecting an older boat... and take a look at the quality of the owner installed interior. Is it tabbed in properly? Does it allow access to the hull? and so on... Take lots of notes and digital photos of the boat if you do go to visit it-human memory is awfully unreliable...
 
#11 ·
There's something else that probably should be said about unfinished "home built" boats.

If the builder really knew about boats and boat work before they began--the boat would probably have been finished. Yes, each case will be different and there will be Real Good Reasons for not finishing. Personal, medical, boss ran off and embezzled the funds, Enron, whatever. But by and large, I think most of the "unfinished" boats and hulls we've all heard of, are the result of someone biting off more than they could chew, and running out of time or money--after investing a lot of it (so they want more than it is worth) and often doing things in a way "only a mother could love".

I'm not saying it can' t be a bargain, only to proceed very cautiously.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I agree with Sailhog here. You have identified a brand of boat that appeals to you. You want to make an offer but are not sure what the boat is worth - to you or to the owner.

Start by finding out how many of these boats are on the market, and what they are selling for. Is your boat in that range ? If not why not ? Next you need to determine what level of skill the person who "finished" the boat had. Is this a case of someone throwing in some pieces of residential grade marine plywood and painting it prety or is there beautiful joinery ? Pictures can tell you some of this, but the best thing you can do is to get a surveyor to talk to the person who fit the interior. They can tell a lot by asking a few questions.

If you are buying the boat to sail offshore, the interior needs to have been constructed in a way that will allow you easy access to to the hull, in order to repair, replace and install things. If it wasn't, then you have the choice of going to sea and hoping nothing ever goes wrong (highly unlikely) or ripping lots of things out and starting over.

It would be a very good idea to do some serious research on the net reading articles about and by people who are actually cruising offshore. What boats are they sailing ? If the brand that you are looking at is not mentioned occasionally, then this may be an indicator that it is not a good offshore boat, and vice-versa.

Remember that if you are buying a home-built or a kit boat, the market value of those boats is considerably less than factory-finished units. It will be when you buy it and it will be when you sell it. So are you going to hold on to the boat for a long time, or are you planning on selling it in five years ? If it's the latter, then think long and hard about how much money you are going to sink into it because you will not be able to recoup all of it. A general rule of thumb is that if you buy a boat in today's market, and maintain it nicely, upgrading things that need to be taken care of, you should get back your initial purchase price - but likely not your purchase price plus improvements.

You were asking specifically about purchase strategy...well you are here and the boat is there. The thing you need to find is a neutral third party to assess the boat. I would suggest finding out who the most reputable boat yard in the area is, and asking them to recommend a surveyor. Call the surveyor and arrange for him to interview the owner/finisher of the boat, inspect it and then give you a report on his findings.

It is going to cost you money, regardless of what you do. Boats are like that. :) Good luck and please update here with your progress.
 
#13 ·
I would amend what sailormann said with, "if you buy a used boat in today's market, and maintain it nicely, upgrading... " Generally, anyone buying a new boat is going to take a huge depreciation hit on the initial purchase price.
 
#16 ·
Hi,
Really there is no reason for you not to negotiate a price range at least with the broker prior to viewing. Yes it is normally done the other way but rules are made to be broken. As an example I fell in love with an advert for a boat some 1000 miles from where we live but the price was defintely too high. We spoke with the broker and ended up with an agreed price range subject to the inspection. All this way before survey time. As it turned out the advert was painting a rosy picture of the boat that was not backed up in real life. That it probably my main point. You cannot realistically judge a boat from an advert so don't get your hopes up. Nonetheless try negotiating the price beforehand and see how you go. Remember that brokers are between a rock and hard place. On the one hand they want the sale at any price, on the other they want to maximise their commssion.
 
#17 ·
It is obvious you will need to see the boat before you buy.

In cases like this I allways ask myself if I'm prepaired to walk away empty handed. If not, I have to be prepaired to pay the asking price. (off course I will still negotiate).

If you realise that you are not prepaired to walk away empty handed and not prepaired to pay the asking price, the price is to high for you and needs to come down before you come and see the boat.

Of course you still run the risk of the price going up again as soon as you see it (nasty broker or owner, feel free to go balistic) so you still have to be prepaired to walk away.

You can get the best deals if you are able to keep your emotions under control and only visit and buy if it is sensible.

If you can not get a good deal now, be patient and keep looking. It is worth it!
 
#18 ·
I have talked to people who hired a surveyor to take a 'first look' at the boat before commiting time, effort & money to see the boat for themselves.
They did not pay for a full survey, just a brief inspection that was a fraction of a survey price.
So the first chore in this method is to find a good local surveyor that knows sailboats.
 
#19 ·
xort said:
I have talked to people who hired a surveyor to take a 'first look' at the boat before commiting time, effort & money to see the boat for themselves.
They did not pay for a full survey, just a brief inspection that was a fraction of a survey price.
So the first chore in this method is to find a good local surveyor that knows sailboats.
In the past I have used "internet aquaintences" as a first set of eyes looking over distant airplanes I was considering. I've also done the same for others.

By having a local person that was knowledgeable about airplanes take a look and perhaps send photos of the warts the seller chose not to publish, I avoided trips to look at several aircraft that "looked good on paper".

Perhaps in this case you could find someone nearby the boat that could take a look for you to see if paying a surveyor is worth it?
 
#20 · (Edited)
There is an old saying...
"Only gamble as much money as you are willing to lose."

While getting a survey is a wonderful idea, there is no way on Gods green earth I'd lay out my cash for something that I've not crawled all over.. myself! Would you buy a home you haven't seen, a car you haven't driven?

There are just too many variables. From build quality to systems, to esthetics, to sailabiliity, to yadda, yadda, yadda.

Spend the dough and see it for yourself. If you have trouble justifying that expense, you can't afford the boat anyway.

The expense of 3k to ship it to where will seem like chump change if it gets there and its something that you just can't stand.

The alternative is buying it, shipping it, launching it, then, walk across the deck and mutter repeatedly "What the hell did I get myself into, and how do I get myself out of it."

Or, I could be an ass and full of crap and it could be the best thing for you on the face of the earth.
 
#21 ·
I miscalculated once by meeting the surveyor at the boat, out of state without going aboard and inspecting it myself first. The owner misrepresented the condition of the vessel over the phone and by e-mail. The posted images did not show the deck and hull delamination or the dozens of other deficiencies. After I called the owner and told him that the deal was off, survey failed, he wanted to know what offer that I would make on the boat. I told him that in my opinion, not the surveyors, that the vessel was a constructive loss. He then asked for a copy of the survey to be mailed to him so that he would know what to fix, I said just as soon as I see a check for half the cost of the survey it would be mailed to him. No checkie...no survey. The survey cost $400.00, which was a bargain, but if I would have gone aboard first, I never would have requested the survey, as the problem moster would have reared it's ugly head and I would have driven back. Boat US recommends not to travel far to look at a boat for sale.
Cardiacpaul, you are not an ass or full of crap. A qualified survey is the only way to go.
BTW, the owner never sent a check.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Use a local broker

Your dilemma comes from finding this boat yourself - now you need to figure out whether its worth your time and money to visit. If you were using a local broker to do the search for you, you should be able to rely on his expertise, and his ability to extract and evaluate facts from the listing broker, to make your decision. The listing broker likely only has this one shot at selling you a boat, he will want you to look at this boat, come hell or high water. If you were working with a local broker, if he doesn't sell you this boat, he'll still get to sell you the next one - he's much more likely to give you good advice. If he says to go look at this boat, and its a dog, he knows you can pick another area broker to work with going forward. He has something to lose if he loses your goodwill. The good brokers are professional and have forgotten a lot more about boats than most of us will ever know. You should be using one, doing so does cost you anymore in the final deal. (I have a strong opinion about this based on my last extended boat search where I DIDN"T use a local broker - did a lot of avoidable footwork and travel.)

Meanwhile, I'd lean on the listing broker for more info - have him shoot a CD full of digital pictures, which only takes an hour or two, get a copy of the last survey - they need for you to spend time and money, get them to do some footwork for you. Then you need to make the trip before you make an offer...
 
#23 ·
Ok, here is CD's opinion on strategy, which probably mimicks Cams:

You have no business putting an offer on a boat before you have seen it. Your broker can give you an idea on how much flexibility the other guy has... but that is all it is. Buying a boat is more than just signing the papers on closing day, it is the countless travelling and looking and researching. All of this costs money (directly or indirectly). The odds of finding the perfect "Bluewater" boat right next door that is the best boat for you and your fam is rediculously small. If we were talking a Catalina 320 or a small Hunter or Bene or Jeauneau... even IP. I would say the odds are not too bad. But a used BW boat that is the perfect one for you and your spouse sitting in the slip beside you (or within a close sail) is pretty darned small. I don't care if you live in Annapolis or Ft. Lauderdale or San Diego.

Also, 3k is not that bad for shipping the boat. And unless you have a buddy next door who is your identical twin, I don't get the point of sending someone else to look at it. THeir opinion (before you have seen it) has no bearing on what you would personally think.

Personal Experience:

When my wife and I were shopping for a Nord & Krogen, we put more miles on the car and plane tickets than I think the damned boats even cost!!! We would always preface the conversation to the broker as: If I drive/fly down there and there is something major wrong with this boat, I AM GONIG TO BE PISSED AT YOU! There are some used car dealers out there, but most brokers hold a reputation and will tell you the goods and the bads (to a point). I have, in general, had good experiences with boats. Most of the boats I have looked at were 400-750k, so they may have a better broker than what a Catalina 22 broker might be. Still, in general (when you tell them the money and expense you are going through), they are upfront (again, to a point <snicker>).

One last thought: Kris, the boys and I ENJOYED boat shopping and travelling. It was like an exciting vacation every time we went. It was fun for us, because I love boats and enjoy shopping for them and looking at them. We were always serious, but with only ONE exception, it was always enjoyable.

Hope that helps...

- CD

PS As I am sure you are wondering, the ONE exception was when the broker was not honest and the boat was a floating (barely) derelict. Luckily, that boat was with a days drive of our house. So, for every rule, there is an exception.
 
#24 ·
Crackes in the Head, etc.

Regarding travel: Jet Blue, Southwest, Airtrans, etc., make it affordable to fly to about any boat place in the US for a few hundred dollars.
I'm committed to the idea that boat shopping should be fun and educational, and if (when) it hurts either financially or emotionally, then I'd recommend chartering which is always a blast and less costly. It's all part of a process of learning and gaining experience.
Flew to Rhode Island spring last year to see a broker recommended boat-incredibly clean fresh water boat that came from upstate New York- made an offer and a broker beat me in the bidding. Last fall, I met a sailor/broker who knew the boat and he told me it had been "holed", flooded, repaired, then shipped to the coast where no buyer would know it's history. However, he said the boat was infamous and the brokers I worked with had to know. He knew the owner made a deal with the selling broker to not reveal the info. As in any sales business, there are good brokers and bad.
Cracks in the head: We flew to Chicago to look at a boat and found a significant crack in the liner in the head. We took picture and compared it to the pics on YW. Either the crack occured after the YW picture was taken or it was photoshopped....and it was listed on YW as a 1999 but was actually 1994. Still, we had a great day. We came home, regrouped, chartered in St. Thomas a few weeks ago and are looking forward to sailing our small boat and shopping. It's all good. There will always be another boat to buy.
IMHO you can't skip the steps: Talk to your broker, fly to look at the boat if air is under $300 maybe (works for me), make an offer, then hire a trusted surveyor and negotiate. My $.02.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Your dilemma comes from finding this boat yourself - now you need to figure out whether its worth your time and money to visit.

Sailingfool,

In fact I did find the boat that I purchased, but it was the last one of three on my short list, inspecting the cheapest first.

I was way to civilized to that misleading owner of the Gulf 32 that was for sale in Sturgeon Bay WI. I had discussed the condition with the dealer that was representing the vessel that failed to provide me with the finer points of, as the highly quailified surveyor refered to it "The derelect of Sturgeon Bay".

Rick

Yado,

I like your style, sailing is suppose to be fun!

Rick
 
#26 ·
dont believe everything you see in photos. ive been looking for a nice coastal cruiser for some time now and taken several trips to the coast to look at boats that looked great in yacht world and the broker assured me they were as advertised. well, 600 to 1500 miles later, non were as described and the pictures looked like different boats. now before i go looking, i ask who wants to go swimming if im being lied to. you're a damn fool if you make an offer or buy sight unseen i dont care who tells you its a great deal. jmho. j.d.
 
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