buying a boat for the pacific northwest

[paul77]

Hi There,

New to the sailnet community, seeking your sage advice and colored commentary on boat options for the pacific northwest.

I live in Seattle, currently charter regularly through a local club. I've sailed since I was a youngster, and in the seattle area since moving here, going on 7 years. In the past couple of years have started doing more cruising both here and the caribbean, california and I have had a shift in perspective on boat ownership (though I did own a hobie 16 for a while). Also helping this along is that my girlfriend loves to sail too

Cruising goals - for the short term weekends and week long trips, within the sound, san juans. In the future maybe a longer trip in the future up to AK or down the coast.

Crew - Me and my girlfriend, in good shape. I'm 6'2, so I need something with headroom.

I'm looking for advice specifically on the right type of both for the northwest, and more generally on used boats in my range. I'm targeting a budget of $30,000/year for the total cost. This includes loan, insurance, moorage, taxes, maintenance, tax benefits. That puts me somewhere like $220-$275k for boat price. Ideally I'd love something that fit my cruising goals and was way under budget, so part of this is figuring out the right point. I'll be financing, with either 10% or 20% down depending on what makes sense.

I'm looking for a higher SA/D monohull >= 40', able to sail shorthanded, with good windward performance. I've had a bias towards newer boats, but I would really like to learn more about what would be involved on an older boat.

I've been looking since February, and I thought the right boat for me was a new Hanse 400. The local dealer (in Vancouver BC) does a lot of volume, so it seems a popular boat up here.

I'm taking a step back from that choice though, after really thinking about how an aft cockpit will work in year round sailing. It's easy to forget with the nice weather we've been having lately, but it's freezing cold here a lot of the time and I usually put the autopilot on and hide under the dodger. From the boats in the marinas it seems a lot of people are fair weather sailors, but we want to be able to go out year round, otherwise we should just stick to chartering.

I've seen some nice center cockpit designs sail by with people looky comfy inside, that I don't recognize. I'm wondering if there isn't an older CC out there that could make me really happy.

I've sailed a Catalina 42 in the san juans over thanksgiving. It had a huge full bimini top/dodger, and it did not keep the wind off well enough.. I'd love to be able to do that trip in comfort.

So I'm not convinced just putting a load of canvas and plastic on the back of an aft cockpit is going to work. What do you all think? Suck it up and get thicker gloves and a ski mask? An Amel?

Alternative boats I'm trying to research: Hylas 44, 45.5, 51, Tayana 48, 52,55, Moody 40,44. HR is overkill and too spendy. I have negative feelings towards Hunter & Catalina.

[Cruisingdad]

I like all those boats.

Of interest to you, Camaraderie has a Tayana 52 which he and his wife cruised on for a while. It is now up for sale. Cam knows his stuff and I would vouch for his knowledge on boats and no doubt how he kept his boat up.

However, the shipping costs are going to be high from Annapolis (where I think the boat is). If nothing else, he would be a good resource for you.

Hope that helps. Good luck in your search.

- CD

[sailingdog]

I would recommend that you look at a Nauticat pilothouse sailboat, like this one.

I do have a question for you: Why are you looking at a boat >=40' in LOA? Is there a specific reason for doing so?

How many people will be aboard typically? How many crew? How much experience do they all have? Given your limits on the annual costs, I doubt that you'll really want a boat 40'+ LOA... the mooring/dockage costs of a boat that long are considerable—since those costs are usually charged per foot. The maintenance, insurance and dockage/mooring costs all generally go up with the size of the boat.

Are you looking for a new boat, or a used boat? A new 40' boat is going to cost in the neighborhood of $200,000 or so. This doesn't account for any customization or modifications you might want to make to the boat.

Assuming a 40' sailboat, with a total purchase price of $200,000 and 18% down, and getting 15 year marine-mortgage at 8% APR, your monthyly payment for just the boat financing would be $1600 or $19,200. Dock costs are usually $130 per foot for a six-month season here in the New England area. Winter storage is about 2/3's that. Total storage costs are going to be about $8000. Insurance for that boat will probably be somewhere in the neighborhood of $2000-2500 or so for an Agreed Value policy. That doesn't leave a whole lot for maintenance costs or fuel or anything else, based on your annual budget of $30,000.

[paul77]

I did see Camraderie's boat on YW, and had seen his knowledge replies in other threads (hoping for one to my post. ).

I think if a Tayana 52 is in my future, it will have to be one where the owner has neglected it so I can get a good deal and con myself into all the upgrades later.

[paul77]

Hi SailingDog, thanks for the reply.

I'm looking at that size for comfort and sailing performance. Originally I was looking at 37'+, but under 40' there are not a lot of boats that I have standing room in. A Beneteau 373 (or similar), or a Hunter 380 would fit me. I could definitely save money with one of those.

I've sailed boats from 25' to 47' in the sound, both cats and monohulls, and I feel this size fits the best. It would typically be just two people, but ideally we'd take one or two other couples with for trips. I've learned to not count on anyone else going if you want to go sailing and it turns out to be a rainy weekend.

I have a spreadsheet with the numbers worked out for all the things you note, so I have open eyes on this one. Including estimated maintenance of $300/month it puts that boat at $24,000/year or so.

Dock costs here are $400/month for a 40', you can go higher or lower than that. $130 would be a a bargain The sailing season is year round in the northwest, so there is no winter storage cost.

The terms you quote for the loan are not as good as I can get from my credit union, and I would do 20 years to maximize my leverage. I'm including the tax advantages in my budgeting figures as it would qualify. The insurance cost is also higher than I have seen quoted for the hanse in specific.

[sailingdog]

Given the season and weather up there, and I spent enough time up there to know it well... I'd recommend you get a pilothouse sailboat. The Nauticats have a nice pilothouse sailboat. Be aware they also make a motorsailer, but that isn't what I'm talking about.

[paul77]

I've been on a nauticat, it was probably the 37 at the Seattle boat show in february. Perusing YW, the new ones are definitely spendy, and the used ones are all in europe (other than the motorsailor). The new one looks a lot like the wauqiuez pilothouse saloon.. (also more readily available in europe, but I think the smaller one doesn't have an interior helm).

Unlike a center cockpit though, the sail controls aren't accessible in the pilot house. This is fine for a long ocean voyage where you are on the same point of sail for a long time and want to stay out of the weather (and heck are probably not hand steering) However, for inland waters you have to tack and adjust sail trim often, where you are exposed to the crappy stuff. We get the real wind here in the winter, so that's the fun time to sail.

I'll have to give it a second thought. I guess two way electric winches could fix that, but that could take a lot of the fun out.

[Sailormann]

I am surprised that you can find a new 40' boat for 200K. One brand you might want to look at is Gozzard. nix that - I just looked at their brokerage listings and they're pretty pricey...

Gozzard Yachts - Brokerage

great boats though. Maybe a Bayfield ? Lots of room, strongly built and the bigger ones are no slower than a lot of other boats out there...

[camaraderie]

Paul...thanks for the kind comments on my boat. I agree with you that a CC boat will:
1. Give you room to spread out a bit below...(I am 6'4") especialy in the aft cabin.
2. Be very snug and comfy if you do a cockpit enclosure an it will keep you drier as well.

My 52 is out of your range and I would think most would be after adding in "fix costs" however I do suggest you look at the Tayana42 CC which is a canoe sterned center cockpit. Other CC's which are well built and can fall into your price range or under it would be:
Hylas 44/46/47, Brewer42/44, Peterson44/46, Moody40/44, Celestial48, Bristol 43/47 and I variety of older, more limited production boats like Oysters, Little Harbors etc.

Be patient...you may have to wait a bit for the right CC boat to come along. Don't be afraid to go fairly far afield to get the boat you want...this is not like buying a Catalina 27...you can put it on a ship to Seattle for less $$ than a similar one might cost you up there. Good luck!

[paul77]

Sailormann, I think you are right for anything but a hunter or catalina. A new hanse 400 is closer to the middle of my price range incl tax and commisioning, depending on options.

Camaraderie, thanks for your advice, esp the comment on shipping the boat up here. Definitely something I have to worry about. A west coast boat would be easiest, but not a lot of what I'm looking for even in CA.

The celestial 48 is nice looking, had never heard of them, sounds like something to check out.