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  #41  
Old 07-09-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonfish
There is a fiberglass 1959 Rawson 30 in my marina. Yes, it is FRP. Very THICK fiberglass. All the way around. Ron Rawson was one of the pioneers in fiberglass boat building. The joke around Puget Sound was/is you could drop a Rawson from the Space Needle and sail it away. From the looks and feel of the boat, it's going to last another 48 years... (Just my amatuer opinion.)
I hope that you are right. In addition to the '76 Fibreglass boat that we now have and hope to have for a long time, the 1965 Pearson Ensign that we used to have is still in use by another owner. The quality and strength of the fibreglass probably factors in much more than the age does. Indeed, many of these older hulls were built so much stronger that they may outlast much more recent designs.
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  #42  
Old 07-09-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valiente
True, but a 25 year old might have neither the time, the skills or the money to keep an aging GRP boat alive, or even on life support. If someone is getting too old to sail, as some 80 year olds are, then it's conceivable that selling it to a 65 year old, who keeps it for 15 years and then repeats the process, could extend the life of a plastic boat farther into the future than we could expect.

I know more than one young-ish person (sub-40) who bought an old sailboat for a few years only to have to sell it because while they could afford a $10K 30 footer from the '70s, they couldn't afford the time for maintaining it, having a job, a house, a spouse, kids and "other interests". The old boat, sucking time and money, ends up getting fire-sold to somebody else...until it finds an owner who can keep it alive, thanks to having spare time, some cash, and the skills.

Now I understand what your saying
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  #43  
Old 07-09-2007
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I'll speak from opinion, since I don't know any real facts. Seems to me (and as others have said), we don't yet know the structural life-span of the hull of a well-built, say, 1960 boat (like a Bounty or a Pearson Triton, just to name two).

The time will come when everything but the hull becomes too much work (hull/deck connection, aluminum spars getting pitted out, wiring and engines need reneway, chain plates and mast step possibly questionable, rudder posts, stuffing boxes, interior of f.g. water tanks, headliners, interior trim, thru-hulls, new sails will cost more than the boat's worth, yada, yada), that an owner may decide it's just easier to get a newer boat.

Fair enough, but it's more of an economic and convenience decision than it is a hull-integrity decision. So I think the "simpler" old glass boats (Pearson Ariel with outboard power, minimal wiring and kerosene lamps down below, for example) may just "outlast" the larger cruisers and racers, simply because there's less "non-hull" stuff to have to keep replacing.

Down here, we have lots of "Katrina wrecks". Your heart tells you, "that's still a sound hull, I could fix it up", but your head tells you that you'd spend way more than it'd be worth. So those boats get the buzz-saw, simply because at some point repairs cost more than new construction.

So I think how long can a glass boat last is more a question of how long the owner(s) will hang in there.

Let's talk again in 30 more years, we'll have a better idea.
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  #44  
Old 07-09-2007
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I guess the only way for this to be determined is for you folks to send all your boats up here to me, with a note attached telling me when they were built. I'll spend an equal amount of time on each, and avoid hitting docks or rocks, and we'll see if any of them wear out before I croak.
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  #45  
Old 07-10-2007
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Red face counting the cost

I've followed this thread. I've also looked at the cost of a new Catalina 350. On the new boat we're talking 160-175K depending on the options.
Looking at a lot of the older boats for sail, a lot of even 35's of various makes can be had from 20K-35K more or less. Many with recent overhalls, newer sails etc. I understand many times people do cosmetic work to make selling easier and such. (sails purchased 2 years or more prior to sales attempts would seem to be an eception to the above).
with number differences of 160K less 35K. 125 thousand seems like a lot to have available for repairs & upgrades to an older boat. You may even be able to afford going out to an over priced touristy resturaunt. Of course all of the above seems to apply to people who can afford to sail in the first place.
I work and slave. I have a decent job. I hate it of course. Was life really meant to be this way? Horrible timing, But I've been considering selling my house at a pittance and buying an older boat. Being homeless I would be forced to live aboard. My commute to work would be almost double. I'd have to sell or get rid of all my accumultated junk. Including all my aquarium stuff I've never been able to afford (but have been succesful with anyway), & Family heirlooms I don't know what to do with. But I would be in a boat. Didn't hippies do this with old school buses? I'm Single, Have no family. Am I really supposed to spend the rest of my life working to make someone else rich, Hoping to maybe, Someday, If I work hard enough, Get a plaque showing just how much I'm appreciated?
Asside the problems of finding a comfortable single handed rig. Assuming a servicable hull, Mast, And sails. Is there anything REALISTICALLY beyond the scope of learning & do it yourself?
Texas supposedly has fairly well priced slips. I wonder what the job market is like down there?
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  #46  
Old 07-10-2007
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Am I really supposed to spend the rest of my life working to make someone else rich, Hoping to maybe, Someday, If I work hard enough, Get a plaque showing just how much I'm appreciated?
Uhmm yes - because if you stop, and then everyone else realises that you're having a good time, and THEY stop, then all of the really rich folks will have to get out there and do their own work and before you know it - executive salaries will be in the toilet and Bergdorf Goodman will be in Chapter 11.

So don't rock the boat ! Forget your destiny, drink more or develop a prescription drug habit, but most importantly - remain a wage slave !!!
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  #47  
Old 07-10-2007
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Quote:
with number differences of 160K less 35K. 125 thousand seems like a lot to have available for repairs & upgrades to an older boat
That is why I have a 35 1972 Nicholson, fix it myself, have a lot of fun, sell everything, go sailing whille you can.
Regards
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  #48  
Old 07-10-2007
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I know that I have posted this before. It was written for a different venue but for what it ios worth, I think it addresses the basic question on the table.


Before getting into the article, I would comment that I disagree that we don't know the life of fiberglass hulls. The insurance study that I mention below clearly made projections about the lifespan of the hulls that it studied (which tested hull panels from well known early U.S. brands like Columbia, Pearson, Bristol and others as well as a number of early fiberglass power boat builders). I also disagree with the statement that boats have not been lost do to aging of fiberglass. The study clearly says otherwise.


"I would not think that a well- constructed fiberglass has a life span per se. Neither concrete nor fiberglass truly breaks down or loses strength simply on their own without other factors coming into play. They require other causes. In the case of fiberglass loss of strength can result from one or more of the following,

-The surface resins will UV degrade.
-Prolonged saturation with water will affect the byproducts formed in the hardening process turning some into acids. These acids can break down the bond between the glass reinforcing and the resin.
-Fiberglass is prone to fatigue in areas repetitively loaded and unloaded at the point where it is repetitively deflected. High load concentration areas such as at bulkheads, hull/deck joints and keel joints are particularly prone.
-Salts suspended in water will move through some of the larger capillaries within the matrix. Salts have larger molecules than water. At some point these salts cannot move further and are deposited as the water keeps moving toward an area with lower moisture content. Once dried these salt turn into a crystalline form and exert great pressure on the adjacent matrix.
-Poor construction techniques with poorly handled cloth, poorly mixed or over accelerated resins, and poor resin to fiber ratios were very typical in early fiberglass boats. These weaker areas can be actually subjected to higher stresses that result from much heavier boats. It’s not all that unusual to see small spider cracking and/or small fractures in early glass boats.
-Of course beyond the simple fiberglass degradation there is core deterioration, and the deterioration of such things as the plywood bulkheads and flats that form a part of the boat’s structure.

Earlier boats had heavier hulls for a lot of reasons beyond the myth that designers did not know how strong fiberglass was. Designers knew exactly how strong the fiberglass of that era actually was. The US government had spent a fortune developing fiberglass information during WWII and by the early 1950’s designers had easy access to the design characteristics of fiberglass. (Alberg, for example, was working for the US Government designing F.G. composite items when he designed the Triton and Alberg 35) The reason that the hulls on the early boats were as thick as they were had more to do with the early approach to the design of fiberglass boats and the limitations of the materials and handling methods used in early fiberglass boats. Early designers and builders had hoped to use fiberglass as a monocoque structure using an absolute minimal amount (if any) framing which they felt occupied otherwise usable interior space.

On its own, fiberglass laminate does not develop much stiffness (by which I mean resistance to flexure) and it is very dense. If you try to create the kind of stiffness in fiberglass that designers had experienced in wooden boats, it takes a whole lot of thickness which in turn means a whole lot of weight. Early fiberglass boat designers tried to simply use the skin of the boat for stiffness with wide spread supports from bulkheads and bunk flats. This lead to incredibly heavy boats and boats that were still comparably flexible compared to earlier wooden boats or more modern designs. (In early designs that were built in both wood and fiberglass, the wooden boats typically weighed the same as the fiberglass boats but were stiffer, stronger, and had higher ballast ratios)

The large amount of flexure in these old boats was a real problem over the life of the boat. Fiberglass hates to be flexed. Fiberglass is a highly fatigue prone material and over time it looses strength through flexing cycles. A flexible boat may have plenty of reserve strength when new but over time through flexure fiberglass loses this reserve. There are really several things that determine the overall strength of the hull itself. In simple terms it is the strength of the unsupported hull panel itself (by 'panel' I mean the area of the hull or deck between supporting structures), the size of the unsupported panel, the connections to supporting structures and the strength of the supporting structures. These early boats had huge panel sizes compared to those seen as appropriate today and the connections were often lightly done.

This fatigue issue is not a minor one. In a study performed by the marine insurance industry looking at the high cost of claims made on older boats relative to newer boats, actual case studies of the comparatively large amount of collision damage that occured on older hulls, and actually doing destructive testing on actual portions of older hulls, it was found that many of these earlier boats have suffered a significant loss of ductility and impact resistance. This problem is especially prevalent in heavier uncored boats constructed starting in the 1960's and continuing even as late as the 1980's before internal structural framing systems became the norm.

The study noted that boats built during the early years of boat building tended to use a lot more resin accelerators than are used today. Boat builders would bulk up the matrix with resin rich laminations (approaching 50/50 ratios rather than the idea 30/70), and typically used proportionately high ratios of non-directional fabrics (mat or chopped glass) in order to achieve a desired hull thickness. Resin rich laminates and non-directional materials have been shown to reduce impact resistance and to further increase the tendency towards fatigue. The absence of internal framing means that there is greater flexure in these older boats and that this flexure increases fatigue further. Apparently, there are an increasing number of marine insurance underwriters refusing to insure older boats because of these hull strength issues.

I have been looking at a lot of older fiberglass boats in the past few years. One thing that has struck me is the sheer amount of noticeable flexure cracking in areas of high stress, such as bulkheads, chainplate attachment points, hull to deck joints, cabin to deck lines, engine beds and rudder posts, and other high load hardware positions. While these areas can be reinforced by grinding away laminate and relaminating the interior and extrerior of these areas, in most cases such repairs are cost prohibitive on the comparatively low value boats.

There are probably other forms of hull degradation that I have not mentioned but I think that the real end of the life of a boat is going to be economic. In other words the cost to maintain and repair an old boat will get to be far beyond what it is worth in the marketplace. I would guess this was the end of more wooden boats than rot. I can give you a bit of an example from land structures. When I was doing my thesis in college, I came across a government statistic, which if I remember it correctly suggested that in the years between 1948 and 1973 more houses had been built in America than in all of history before that time. In another study these houses were estimated to have a useful life span of 35 years or so. As an architect today I see a lot of thirty five year old houses that need new bathrooms, kitchens, heating systems, modern insulation, floor finishes, etc. But beyond the physical problems of these houses, tastes have changes so that today these houses in perfect shape still has proportionately small market value. With such a small market value it often does not make sense from a resale point of view to rebuild and these houses are therefore often sold for little more than land value. At some level, this drives me crazy, since we are tearing down perfectly solid structures that 35 years ago was perfectly adequate for the people who built it, but today does not meet the “modern” standards.

The same thing happens in boats. You may find a boat that has a perfectly sound hull. Perhaps it needs sails, standing and running rigging, a bit of galley updating, some minor electronics, a bit of rewiring, new plumbing, upholstery, a little deck core work, an engine rebuild, or for the big spender, replacement. Pretty soon you can buy a much newer boat in better condition with all relatively new gear for less than you’d have in the old girl.

Its not all that hard for an old boat to suddenly be worth more as salvage than as a boat. A couple years ago a couple friends of mine were given a Rainbow in reasonable shape. She just needed sails and they wanted a newer auxiliary outboard, but even buying everything used the boat was worth a lot less than the cost of the “new” parts. When they couldn’t afford the slip fees, the Rainbow was disposed of. She now graces a landfill and the cast iron keel was sold for scrap for more than they could sell the whole boat for.

Then there is the issue of maintainable vs. durable/low maintenance design concepts. Wooden boats for example represent the difference between a maintainable construction method versus a low maintenance/ durable method. A wooden boat can be rebuilt for a nearly infinite period of time until it becomes a sailing equivalent of ‘George Washington’s axe’ (as in “that’s George Washington’s axe. It’s had a few new handles and a few new heads but that is still George Washington’s axe”.) The main structure of a fiberglass hull is reasonably durable and low maintenance but once it has begun to lose strength, there is nothing that you can do.

The best deals on older used boats are the ones that someone has lovingly restored, upgraded, and maintained. Over the years they have poured lots of money and lavished lots of time into maintaining the boat in reasonably up to date condition. No matter how much they have spent the boat will never be worth anything near what they have in it because there is a real ceiling to how much an older boat will ever be worth and they will often have several times that ceiling invested.

And finally if you buy an old fiberglass boat, paint the bilges white. It does nothing for the boat, but if you ever have to sell the boat, then someone may look in your bilge and say “Lets buy her because any owner who would love a boat so much that he went through the trouble to paint the bilge white must have enjoyed this boat and taken great care of her no matter what her age.”

Good Luck,
Jeff

Last edited by Jeff_H; 07-10-2007 at 11:43 AM.
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  #49  
Old 07-10-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poopdeckpappy
Now I understand what your saying
I was typing from the aft deck with my assistant present, Ms. D.N. Stormee. Lovely thing, but a tad distracting.
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  #50  
Old 07-10-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valiente
I was typing from the aft deck with my assistant present, Ms. D.N. Stormee. Lovely thing, but a tad distracting.
Valiente,
You're working aboard with an assisant? Sounds like an Old Milwaukee beer commercial: "It don't get no better than this..."
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