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  #31  
Old 07-27-2007
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Chris,
I couldn't agree with you more. When we did our boat search our first 3 screening criteria were budget(although that seemed to change as we went), classic lines, and warm and homey interior. If it didn't meet those criteria we didn't look. It didn't matter how it was equipped or what the age of the boat was. Our final three choices ended up Tayanas, Passports and Cabo Ricos. None of the newer boats got my juices flowing like those did. I'm sure there are others that would have but we just didn't come across one. Certainly there were no "newer" boats that met those criteria for me. Youmake too many comprimises early in life, there's no need to make one now when it comes to something like your next boat.
Tom Shannon
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  #32  
Old 07-27-2007
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giulietta -- in most cases, those are base prices for the new boats, FOB.. When you option one of those babies out it's going to add $200k+..

As I'm actively researching this type of boat, though for inshore coastal use, I'm trying to figure out what the real SA/D is. I think I might start a new thread on this.. But I'll ask here for now since it's about Tayanas --

The T55 Cutter rig from the factory had the following sail area:
Mainsail 592 sq ft.
Staysail 290 sq. ft.
115% Yankee sail 753 sq. ft.

So that gives 1635 incl staysail and 1345 without it. Giving two options for SA/D.. A sedate 16.2, or a sprightly 19.7. I've seen the first value quoted on boats.com though they were calculating based on IJPE.

I know SA/D is just a number, but I'm trying to get a general concept of the expected performance envelope. Is the staysail typically included in this calculation of SA/D? Does it help with upwind sailing performance? I understand cutters are not supposed to do as well as a sloop to windward, so maybe not?
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  #33  
Old 07-27-2007
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Typically the sail area used for SA/D is the 100% foretriangle plus the triangular dimensions (excluding leech and foot roach or leech hollow for that matter) of the mainsail and mizzen if there is one. This is a fair number because in terms of overall performance the staysail adds little over a triangular course.

Island Packet was scalded in press for publishing SA/D's that included not only the staysail, but the overlap on their genoas. The problem with that is that it makes it sound like the Island Packets have much more sail area than they really do relative to other companies who were honest with their numbers.

If you are going to be doing predominantly coastal cruising I would think that you would want an SA/D well above 20, rather than the 16.2 of this boat. That said, bigger boats can actually get by with slightly lower SA/D's because they tend to be more easily driven for any given L/D. On the other hand, bigger boats also generally have lower L/D's as well.

Jeff
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  #34  
Old 07-27-2007
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Thanks Jeff, exactly the info I was wondering about. I have been looking for something closer to 20, especially here where we have light summer airs and all year round you are usually running or beating to get up and down the puget sound.
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  #35  
Old 07-27-2007
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I just gotta ask ! Somewhat off topic sorry !

Jeff - I'm new to the forum and even worse not a boat owner but I'm dying to know what boat fits your criteria ? The oyster 525 doesn't even have a SA/disp greater than 20

Here's what I want - A brand new "bluewater capable" boat. Think circumnavigation.
Approx. 50' in length.
It has to have three genuine staterooms for three couples - it's okay if one of the cabins has upper and lower berths.
I want huge amounts of stowage for scuba tanks and compressor and whatever else I feel like hauling along
I'd prefer a center cockpit
The layout I love is the IP485 - has every thing I want or need(if the middle cabin was set up for berths instead of an office which is an option) I can even envision draping a curtain between the salon and nav station and galley area to use the salon settees as sea berths and keep them from being disturbed (somewhat) by the on watch crew.
I know you don't like IP's and I'm okay with that (although you seem to REALLY REALLY dislike these boats or maybe you are just the devils advocate in regards to the hype they receive)
oh yeah a few more things the boat has to be made in either the USA (it's just me) or Europe
I also like the keel to be all of one piece of the hull like IP's and I believe Calibers, although this isn't critical
and two more things a sub 6' draft if possible
and keep it under $850,000
Now I don't care if the boat is slow but I would prefer to sail rather than motor so light wind performance would be pivotal

So tell me - What boat, that fits these qualifications, would you buy ?
I'm dying to know - if price wasn't a factor I would LOVE a Hallberg 54
also what do you know of the Alden 55

Also let me take this opporunity to thank you for all the knowledge you bring to the forum and say how happy I am that it's you instead of BigRed(the pirate of pine island) I'm asking this of

laters
Kevin
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  #36  
Old 07-27-2007
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Kevin - why the requirement for the boat to be built in either the USA or Europe? Taiwan and China have a long heritage in quality boat building with excellent detail to attention and amazing woodwork.
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  #37  
Old 07-27-2007
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Labbatt

It's just a personal affectation (mild xenophobia I know - yet I still want to sail the world - the duality of man). There are a number of reasons for it, based on a number of socioeconomic and environmental factors that I will not discuss too deeply here. Much of it has to due with the balance of trade and things like the fact that my parents brand new patio set made in China was just found to be coated with a paint that has a high lead content.

It has nothing to do with the build quality of the product, even though it is toxic to small childen and pets the patio furniture is made very nicely. Yes I know the sailboat keel will probably be all lead but I don't plan on letting the pets or rugrats come into direct contact with it.

I buy USA made goods when I can, then European and even African or South American. Too hard to find Russian stuff (excepting mil surplus) but my girl's Ukranian so I've got that covered. Mainly, it's to try and help maintain a manufactring base in countries that don't have a population exceeding a billion, before they get turned into nothing more than Walmarts slinging retail china made goods. China and India are my last resort for manufactured goods - I obviously use a computer so I can't avoid it completely

At least thats what I tell myself.

Thats more than I meant to write, sorry !
and sorry too for the temporary hijack.

Have a great day
Kevin
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  #38  
Old 07-27-2007
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Kevin,

This kind of discussion somewhat depends on what you are trying to accomplish by your circumnavigation and personal taste. As you note, I am not a big fan of Island Packets. It comes down to my basic philosophy about boats, which is that good sailing ability and ease of handling across a wide wange of conditions is a high priority. To me that means an easily driven hull form, an efficient rig and first class sail-handling gear. Whatever their potential merits, the general design approach employed by Island Packets tends to be biased in the exact opposite direction to my own tastes. As the expression goes, there is a lid for every pot, and for some people the Island Packet is as good as life gets. I just happen to not be one of them.

There are certain details of the standard Island Packet that would be totally unacceptable dealbreaker for me on an offshore yacht (their post hung spade rudder which extends to the bottom of the keel for one or their insistence on having the tack of thier primary jib out on the end of a bowsprit for another, and under no circumstances would I want to go offshore with an encapsulated keel). But perhaps that's just me.

I think that I can explain how personal taste comes into this by giving my own thoughts on what I would consider for a world cruiser for myself, fully knowing that few on this forum would agree with my sellections. I think that if I were sailing around the world in the manner that I would like and had your budget and size requirements, I would probably look at a J-160 of something like that. Another option might be a Santa Cruz 52. Yes I know neither would not be suitable for most folks, but the general their interior and systems layout combined with its ease of handling really appeal to me.

Another design that I personally, and I emphasize personally. would consider in this size range would be the Farr 55 http://www.farrdesign.com/086.htm in one of its later forms (Tompkins 55) I have sailed on one of these and was bowled over by its sailing ability and ease of handling, and have met a couple who sailed one from New Zealand to the US and who had nothing but raves for the design. These are an older design and you see them pretty cheaply from time to time (last one was somewhere less than $350K) but I figure they would need a major overhaul to be suitable for a circumnavigation. Another design that also appeals to me is Farr design number 92. http://www.farrdesign.com/092.htm Of course, I am not sure that either Farr design would be terribly appealing to most folks for a circumnavigation.

If I was to make a more moderate recommendation in this general size I would probably suggest something like a Hylas 54 with the low profile cabin option and keel/centerboard configuration. I know about your predjudices but predjudices aside these seem to be an excellent design with a very high build quality. (SA/D around 19.7)

If you had to go American, you might look at something like a Valliant 50. While I generally like Caliber's better than I like Island Packets, I really don't like their 47.

Anyway, good luck and thanks for the kind words.

Jeff


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  #39  
Old 07-27-2007
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I would probably look at a J-160 of something like that. Another option might be a Santa Cruz 52. Yes I know neither would not be suitable for most folks, but the general their interior and systems layout combined with its ease of handling really appeal to me.

If Hal Roth liked it, I probably would as well. I can't argue with your choices in performance cruisers, even though what I could afford looks more like what the Smeatons or the Hiscocks would have preferred. But I just don't have that kind of cash...OK, maybe if I emptied the cruising kitty.

I am foregoing the "performance" aspect in favour of stowage, tankage, room in which to fix it myself, room in which to carry perhaps excessive amounts of chain, anchors and spare canvas, and the sort of hull form that will clock off a steady five knots in all weathers, but will rarely surf.

Were I alone, and not expecting to cruise with a young family, it would be different, and I would have the Porsche Boxster of boats instead of the Dodge Caravan with extra cupholders and foldaway seating...but this is how it's possible in the first place, and I can always crew on other people's boats.
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  #40  
Old 07-27-2007
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Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valiente View Post
Were I alone, and not expecting to cruise with a young family, it would be different, and I would have the Porsche Boxster of boats instead of the Dodge Caravan with extra cupholders and foldaway seating...but this is how it's possible in the first place, and I can always crew on other people's boats.

And you are allways welcome!!!

I have a "performance cruiser"....and I agree with Jeff.

I am crusing with a performance cruiser. Val you sailed it, mine is docile boat, isn't it? easy to sail...right??

Would get you to places fast...
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