Bottom paint, survey and sails

[CapnRon47]

I am working on buying my first boat. It is not local and I have not seen it, yet. But I am asking questions and getting responses from broker, finance and insurance agents.

The bottom was painted a year and a half ago with Pettit Ultima Pro blue. I assume AwlGrip is the standard that bottom paint is judged by, does anybody have anything to say about Pettit?

The finance company may require a NAMS or SAMS accredited surveyor, is this usual for a personal sailboat (31')? Is it reasonable to ask the seller to split the cost of the survey, which may include travel if there are no local accredited surveyors?

The sails on this 1988 cutter rig are original ("but in very good condition due to light use and always being covered") so says the broker. Will the surveyor inspect the sails also? What am I looking at if they need replacement?

[SEMIJim]

Originally Posted by CapnRon47

The bottom was painted a year and a half ago with Pettit Ultima Pro blue. I assume AwlGrip is the standard that bottom paint is judged by, does anybody have anything to say about Pettit?

No, AwlGrip is not bottom paint. Bottom paint (aka: anti-fouling paint) is a much different thing. My boat has VC-17 bottom paint.

Originally Posted by CapnRon47

The finance company may require a NAMS or SAMS accredited surveyor, is this usual for a personal sailboat (31')? Is it reasonable to ask the seller to split the cost of the survey, which may include travel if there are no local accredited surveyors?

The finance company will almost certainly require a pre-purchase survey, just as a home mortgage company would generally require an appraisal. Regardless: You want one, anyway. Without a survey, a $10k boat can quickly turn into a $20k or $30k boat. We paid cash for our boat, but we had it surveyed so we'd know what we were buying. No, it is not reasonable to ask the seller to split the cost of the survey. You wouldn't want that, anyway. You want that surveyor working for one person and one person only: You!

Originally Posted by CapnRon47

The sails on this 1988 cutter rig are original ("but in very good condition due to light use and always being covered") so says the broker. Will the surveyor inspect the sails also?

Depends on the surveyor.

Originally Posted by CapnRon47

What am I looking at if they need replacement?

Depends on what you replace them with. When I got into this discussion, here on Sailnet, a month or so ago, I was given a range of $1600 or so, on up to $20k, IIRC. I know some of the sails on the boat we bought cost the seller in the vicinity of $2500 or so. (I know this because he mentioned it.)

Jim

[camaraderie]

Figure around $2500 for a basic set of new sails (main+genny) for a 30 foot boat. Of course you can spend way more for racing.
In addition to your boat survey you will want a diesel mechanic to inspect the engine and go out on the sea trial with you. New or rebuilt engine could cost between 5-15K installed and it is NOT something most surveyors have expertise in.
Survey will run somewhere around $500. You will also pay for haulout of boat. So figure a grand or so to satisfy your finance company and give yourself some peace of mind about exactly what you are getting. I would note that on EVERY boat I've ever bought, the problems found on survey resulted in a reduction of selling price that exceeded the cost of the survey.
...and don't use a surveyor the broker recommended!

[CapnRon47]

I looked here http://www.iboats.com/Awlgrip_Awlsta...-view_id.48460 and it seems that Awlgrip is the manufacturer of bottom antifouling paints as well as topside. Because I have heard it mentioned so often I assumed Awlgrip was the top of the line.

I appreciate the comments on the surveyor. And also on the deisel mechanic.

It seems to me that 20 years is a pretty long time to expect even very well kept sails to remain usable. I only have experience chartering boats and the one sail problem I had was noted on the pre-inspection by the chartering company that it looked ragged. I was fortunate on that as I did not know what to look for.

[SEMIJim]

Our boat came with quite a sail complement, incl. the original main, jib and genoa. The seller recommended we use the original sails while we're learning to sail the boat, to avoid unnecessarily punishing the newer sails. (New main, light and heavy genoas.) The original sails are 31 years old and still in quite good shape. It really all depends on how and how much they were used. It seems the original owners didn't actually sail the boat much, or very hard when they did. (Up until we bought her, she spent her entire life in the same yacht club, so her history is well-known.)

Jim

[T37Chef]

In addition to a mechanical survey and a general survey, a rigging survey/inspection is a good idea. Some surveyors may do this but many don't. Ask them when you are searching.

[CapnRon47]

Thanks, following that thought how do you establish the history of a boat. Not necessarily sailing info, more related to maintenance, accidents, towing, etc. Do I depend on the previous owners logs or are their reports that can be purchased?

[camaraderie]

Awlgrip also makes 2 types of Awlstar bottom paint. When people refer to Awlgrip they are generally referring to their 2 part topside paints.

[sailingdog]

Also, I would advise against splitting the cost of the survey with the seller, as you want the surveyor to be working solely on your behalf.

[mikehoyt]

Awlgrip is not a manufacturer but a product. The manufacturer is US Paints and their product Awlgrip does seem to be a standard above the water that many other paints are compared against. Petit also makes good quality paints. I would concentrate your investigations in other areas as the brand of paint will make little difference to the overall condition and therefore value of the boat.

I am surprised any finance company would be involved with a 20 year old boat. When I bought my first boat I was told by the bank that boats over 15 years old are not considered assets. They advised using my line of credit. therefore there is no lein against the boat and bank has no concerns about survey, etc...

Check out condition of the hull. Look for evidence of repairs below the waterline for osmosis (blisters) or grounding. The surveyor will likely pick up on this before you do though. Check out the condition of the deck. Is it soft and bouncy in places indicating a cored deck that needs work? Have the engine inspected and the rigging. Also check out how many sails, insturments, etc.. and if any of these have been upgraded.

In my experience if a boat has all original instrumentation, sails, etc... and is 20 years old it says a lot about the owner. 20 year old sails are pretty worn out as are other original equipment. While the sails will still work reasonably well they will not be efficient. The owner who upgrades sail inventory, instruments, etc.... is the owner who also cares for many other aspects of boat maintenance. The owner who does not upgrade anything and has a flaky bottom, etc... is likely the type of person that does not spend much effort keeping the boat in top shape. Let the surveyor look for hull condition and you sould look for pride of ownership and care of the vessel by the revious owner.

Rambling a bit here but old sails typically need replacement. $2500 is pretty low for a main and genoa - especially if a masthead 30 foot boat. Here a 30 footer typically is $3000 for the main alone and almost as much if not more for the genoa. With a cutter rig there are also stay sails.

Then there is the engine. Research the make and model. Atomic 4 gas engines while old are solid old engines for example but an improperly or poorly maintained newer engine may be a nightmare that needs replacement.

Treat this like a used car purchase. Ask for reciepts and maintenance records. Looking at maintenance records for the engine you should be able to tell how reliable it is and how well maintained.

Ask what projects/upgrades were performed over the last three years. If none then not likely a vessel that had a lot of attention.

If the vessel turns out to be missing some of the key ingredients then you don't ncessarily have to turn away - just realize that your after purchase costs have gone up so the purchase price must go down. Inform the broker of this.

There are many many used boats out there so don't get stuck on one. Look for one that suits you and is in pristine condition and well maintained. That is the best starting point.

Have fun - looking is the best part

Mike
Full Tilt 2