older boats really cheap - bargain or bottomless pit?

[toben]

I live in the Mass. area and I have been watching older boats in the 25-30 foot size on craigslist and ebay go for really really cheap. Think $2000-$6000 for good condition 70's - early 80's boats.

I am guessing these are cheap because its the end of the season, no one wants to buy, and people want to sell before they pay winter storage costs.

How good is a a 30 year old boat in good condition that is being sailed on the weekends. Is a 30 year old worth that much less than a 10 year old boat?

If I find a sound boat for $2000 with good sails and buy a new engine am I better off than getting a newer boat?

Plan is to do weekend sailing and maybe sail down to NY and DC next summer.

Thanks,
Toben

[kwaltersmi]

I have been looking at very cheap boats over the last year or so. I believe that most of the cheap boats (< $3000) that are advertised (Craigslist, Yachtworld, eBay, etc.) are not even worth the minimal purchase price. There are simply too many repairs and issues. This is the reason the owners are dumping them.

After a fruitless year of searching for a cheap boat, I changed my search methods. Rather than looking for cheap boats through advertising venues such as those listed above, I started running my own Craigslist want-ads and networking at marinas and yachtclubs. My goal was to target boat owners who didn't necessarily know they wanted to sell. I found many people who had boats sitting on trailers or in barns that hadn't been used (or maintained!) and just hadn't thought about selling because the boat was "out of sight, out of mind". I was pleasantly surprised to find that many of these boats were in better condition than the cheap boats being advertised.

The moral of the story is this: Use alternative methods to find cheap boats and bargains!

I ended up finding a Helms 25 for $400. The boat had belonged to an elderly gentleman who passed away a couple of years ago. It was sitting on his property in decent condition. His son was happy to have it go to someone who was going to put it to use again.

[arbarnhart]

I am cheap and I have been burned many times (I am not just talking boats) by trying to get too much with too little. I still look for deals, but I look for basic functionality that works over lots of bells and whistles that don't work reliably if at all.

I also agree with kwaltersmi. I got a lot of leads from posting a Craigslist "wanted" ad in the Boats section (does anyone ever really read the Wanted section?) and from posting a duscussion item about my search on a local sailing forum. If you are selling any of your own stuff and you have a purchase in mind, mention it in your ad as a possible trade for or towards. I got a car top snark for a guitar. I posted the guitar for sale in Musical Instruments and mentioned that I was looking for a car top sailboat. I got a reply rather quickly from a guy who wanted a guitar but really didn't have the cash, so he was watching the list for deals. The boat in ihis backyard was the furthest thing from his mind until he saw my ad. Now I have a bigger boat and need a motor. In trying to sell the Snark, I mention that and someone offers me a 10 HP for it! Unfortunately, that is more than my little 17 footer needs, so I passed on it, but I think you get the point. Who knows - somewhere there may be someone who would rather have your old sofa than his old Alberg...

[TSteele65]

It all depends on how handy you are and how much time you can devote to salvaging a lost cause. There's usually a reason for boats showing up on last-ditch sites like craigslist or ebay, and it's not because the seller doesn't know the value of his boat.

[Sabre66]

I found an old Columbia Sabre, on the hard in Manchester Ma. The owner wanted $2,500 I offerd him $1,000 and it was mine.Since then it's been 4 seasons of restoration and roughly $20,000 in materials and sails. When I first bought her I had no idea what I was getting into....but I'd do it again now that I have a fully restored boat worth roughly $8,000

[Valiente]

I found my first boat privately as it was listed on a club bulletin board. I bought it on August 31 and got $8,000 off the initial asking price following a survey and the previous owner's desire to close the deal. So it wasn't cheap, but it was a bargain to the point that it's ten years later and I could still get what I paid for it, or close to it.

You have to put the six to eight grand I've invested in it as "running costs", however!

The idea struggling to be seen here is that a boat as a bargain vs. being a moneypit is very relative. Due to dockage, haulage, maintenance, periodic replacement of things that wear out and insurance, even a free boat in good condition is not a bargain...merely a somewhat shallower moneypit. I avoid a lot of costs by doing my own work and thinking very hard about which improvements are truly needed, plus my own tolerance for missing conveniences. Probably the cheapest manner in which to run a bargain boat is anchored out, but then you want to spend on better than recreational level ground tackle, and you need a dependable tender to go to and from, and you need a way to keep the battery charged in your absence. Not every place allows anchoring, however, and moorings are generally not free anymore.

Of course, if you run your boat without an engine or electrics, like the Pardeys, you'll cut costs, but don't expect me to see you at night unless you keep those oil lamp lenses pristine!

[sailingdog]

Generally, getting a really low-priced boat is going to be more expensive than getting the exact same make/model boat that is in better shape, as the cost of repairing and restoring a boat is generally more than the additional cost of purchasing the more expensive boat that is in useable shape to begin with.

[Rockter]

If you want a money pit, buy a Porsche, and leave it rusting in the drive way. Better still, buy the Porsche on finance, then pay interest on a depreciation asset.

A well-built boat will hack the pace, and will not lose much value. Maintainence must be done, and that is an essential, and the vast majority of it will be your own efforts.

It is a commitment though.

[SEMIJim]

Originally Posted by toben

How good is a a 30 year old boat in good condition that is being sailed on the weekends.

That depends on a number of factors, not the least of which is: How well has it been maintained? Except for the oddly unusual case, I would almost be willing to bet that the 30 year old boat that was only sailed by grandma to go to church on Sunday will be in worse shape than one owned by an experienced sailor that regularly cruised or raced it. Why? Because an experienced sailor that regularly cruised or raced a boat is far more likely to have performed the regular, necessary maintenance needed to keep the boat from failing him or her. (Not to mention some nice upgrades, perhaps.) The thing you have to be careful of on a previously-raced boat is that it hasn't been beat to death.

I imagine it's possible to pick up a good mid-70's 25-footer for around $6k. You are almost certainly not going to find a good mid-70's 30-footer for that, nor a later model 25-footer, IMO. Unless you luck out. The PO of our boat actually picked her up from donated boat organization. This was a rare case where the boat didn't really belong there (and nobody really knows why the 1st owners did that), and somebody else happened to be in the right place at the right time.

In any event: No matter how "cheap," no matter how good a shape she appears to be in, no matter how good a deal you think you're getting: Get a pre-purchase survey done. Otherwise you may find yourself being another guy that bought a $3k boat and ended-up investing another $20k - and a lot of sweat.

Jim

[mikehoyt]

Reading this two things come to mind.

1. Are you restoring an old boat to save money or because you love the process? If just to save money look around for a boat in good condition at a bargain price. Some of us like the work because it is rewarding and the maintenance is fun.

2. The bigger the boat the bigger the expense to fix it up and not in a linear way. Bigger boats mean bigger gear that costs many times that of a smaller boat. Also more expensive sails, more complicated systems - electrical and engine, etc... Stick to a small boat and not so bad.

On my 26 a really nice mainsail is $2000 + tax. On a C&C30 is 3500 + tax. Old boats often have crap for sails so this should be remembered.

On the 26 I recored cockpit floor last year. I left the outer two inches to have something to use as a level guide and to have something to tab on to. Took about 3 weekends - 2 long days each time. The outer two inches caused problems and started to look like hell this winter so I did a "quick fix" in the spring. Ground it down, applied resin and cloth, fairing & paint. Didn't quite come out as I wanted and it was launch time. Later in the summer on vacation I spent 3 days cutting, grinding, chiselling to remove all the old core in that outer 2 inch strip, replacing that core, rebuilding the deck & refinishing. Should have done this the first time. Total time approx 7 days or part days when combining Spring and summer time spent.

After doing this I still had regular seasonal maintenance with plumbing, brightwork, cleaning, antifouling and other tasks. Takes time.

After launching I had picked up an old laser that had some previous glass work done and needed refurbishing. No real deadlines so it was afun project. It had the mast tube torn out at one time and needed basic cosmetic repairs and refinishing. So I dragged out my grinder, Random Orbital Sander, resins, cloth, fairing compounds and paints. Over three weekends I had the hull cleaned up and painted, the deck, cockpit and non skid the same, new hiking strap, mainsheet block, cam cleats, lines, etc.... all done and the boat sailing. Minimal cost, a lot of wow factor and a really fun boat.

Of course then we had a major setback when the mast tube repair let go and the deck was shattered - result of grown men (6' 3") in a big wind sailing a dingy. That happened on a Sunday and by the following Friday the mast tube was back in place, the foredeck replaced, the glasswork and refinishing complete and the boat sailing on that Saturday.

My point? A big job on a little boat is a lot simpler than a little job on a big boat.

I took b4 & after pictures of the laser and then pictures along the way on the deck replacement. http://laserproject.angelfire.com/ Unfortunately I did not do the same with the larger boat. It too has a website but none of the maintenance work is shown on that site - more just the boat and its experiences. http://www.angelfire.com/ns2/fulltilt2/

Mike