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Difficult Choice

7K views 37 replies 15 participants last post by  arosental 
#1 · (Edited)
Difficult Choice: beauty & speed

dear friends, i need help.

I am about to buy my first serious boat and I need all the help I can get (I am sure you remember how insecure one gets and how afraid of making a mistake...).
Here is my profile: 40 yo, sailed from the age of 14 to 27, raced with Flyng Dutchman and Tornado (cat), 15th in the world championship of Tornado, stopped abruptly and only this year sailed again and found again that irresistible joy and happiness. Therefore: i know how to sail and race, but I have never actually raced with a yacht.
About to buy my first yacht (I owned laser, Flyng Dutchman, class A cat and Tornado in the past) and completely torn between two opposite philosophies (I am sure that many of you know this feeling).
My intentions: I want to keep the boat on the LI Sound, mostly use it as a daysailer, although I also want to use it as a vacation home for weekends in summer and fall, I would like to take it for a 2 week cruise along the east coast in the summer (maine), and I know that I will not resist the desire to race it on weekends (at a club level for now). I will mostly sail her with one or two people crew and I would like to be able to sail alone in very calm conditions). Also: never used the engine to enter and leave a marina: I will have to lear quickly.
I love to push a boat to her limits but I cannot resist the beauty of old-looking boats (long overhangs and some lovely wood in the cockpit, although no teak on deck!, great woodwork in the interior). i really can't help myself!
After researching the available boats in my budget 30-70K, I narrowed it down to two groups: beauty and speed:

Please, can you give me your knowledgable opinion about the quality of these boats, the speed, any thought, reccomendation, experience etc.

BEAUTY and COMFORT:

30 Sparkman & Stephens
30 Hinckley SW
34 HAlberg Mistral
Sabre 34-36-38
37 Vauquiez
37 Tartan
38 Little Harbor
39 C&C Northeast
40 Bristol
40 Cal
40 Palmer Johnson NY

RACE:

30 Omega
30 kirie Elite
36 Shock
36 Frers F3
37 Tripp
37 Farr

I will welcome any thought you might have.
 
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#2 ·
Given your being accustomed to performance, it seems to me you should stick to the performance side of your list.

As you are planning to be more or less shorthanded most of the time, I'd lean toward the fractional rigs on your list for ease of foresail handling, incl spinnakers (relative to the size of the boat)

The classic beauties are indeed breathtaking, but there is a definite cost in terms of maintenance time, and lapses in upkeep quickly show. Also some of those boats may frustrate you with reduced performance.

The Shock 36 (aka NY 36), the Farr and Tripp boats may fit the bill, the F3 is a nice boat too. They will satisfy performance criteria and certainly provide adequate facilities for the limited cruising you intend. The Shock has a somewhat unconventional layout that you'd probably want to take a close look at to see if it suits you. The Farr and Tripp may be a bit on the austere side.

Those on your first list are certainly worth consideration if your priorities shift in that direction. (ie comfort, appearance etc)
 
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#3 ·
Regarding the Schock/NY36, I completely agree that this boat is worth looking at for its performance. Also, the interior layout is unconventional yes, but I always liked it -- very airy which is nice during summer in hotter climates.

However, and this is a big caveat if you will be shorthanded, in my opinion it is a boat that is better suited to larger crews. It likes meat on the rail, and that HUGE mainsail can be a real bear. I would advise test-sailing this boat prior to purchase to see if you find it manageable.

It would make an outstanding candidate if you wanted to mount a PHRF racing campaign -- with crew. It has a decent rating (used to be 114 here on Chesapeake, but probably a bit less than that elsewhere).
 
#14 ·
Regarding the Schock/NY36, I completely agree that this boat is worth looking at for its performance. ...
However, and this is a big caveat if you will be shorthanded, in my opinion it is a boat that is better suited to larger crews. It likes meat on the rail, and that HUGE mainsail can be a real bear. I would advise test-sailing this boat prior to purchase to see if you find it manageable....
John is absolutely correct - the NY36 has a huge main and is a powerful boat that will certainly prefer more crew... but with a good mainsheet system and good decision making re: reefing a main can be relatively easy to control by a smaller crew. (compared to the huge genoas and kites of large "J" dimension masthead rigs)

A fractional rig keeps the headsail handling to a managable level, and I'd be sorely tempted (given the large, powerful main) to run a NY 36 with just a main and blade/#3 in all but the lightest conditions. We had a small one design boat in the same sort of vein for years and class rules only allowed a single non overlapping headsail in the inventory - Kept things real simple and you learned to shift gears with what you had up.

Good luck, SNAP, in your quest.
 
#6 ·
BEAUTY and COMFORT:

30 Sparkman & Stephens
There are a lot of 30 S&S designs out there...
30 Hinckley SW
SW Junior ?? Old, beautiful but heavy and they take a lot of upkeep

34 HAlberg Mistral
Sabre 34-36-38
37 Vauquiez
37 Tartan
38 Little Harbor
39 C&C Northeast
Not one of the best C&C designs... Look at the hulls very carefully for wetness

40 Bristol
40 Cal
40 Palmer Johnson NY

RACE:

30 Omega
30 kirie Elite
36 Shock
36 Frers F3
37 Tripp
37 Farr
Newfangled inventions that have yet to stand the test of time ;)
 
#7 · (Edited)
Hi,

I keep Shiva in LIS and use it on the weekends and do a few longer crusises. I don't race, but like all sailors try to get there as fast as I can.

I have also done the Marion Bermuda race and sailed many times to the Caribbean and even to Brazil all on the boat I bought when I was almost 40 some 22 years ago.

Most important to me was that the boat could be singled handed and set up to do this EASILY. I do not want to rely on crew for ANYTHING including docking for things like fuel and water fill ups.

Since I intended and DO live aboard at times I want a comfy boat with a large cockpit we can lounge about in... eat and work the boat. A large galley is important as well if you intend to cruise.

You will want a decent auxiliary as well and a boat that behaves well under power, sail and at anchor.

I would avoid the full on racers and the real heavy offshore boats and look for a racer cruiser which meets the above criteria.

I lucked into the Contest 36 which is perfectly suited to MY requirements as noted above. I see many pretty boats on the outside, not as many with as good a cockpit (with the above criteria) and am unfamiliar with the accommodation plans of most boats as I don't go below or visit boat shows these days. I have no opinion on how these many attractive yachts perform.

I can only tell you that if your criteria align with mine you should consider a Contest 36 is you can find and afford one.

jef
sv shiva

BTW cruising up to ME will require more than two weeks to even touch her beauty. It take almost 6 or more days to get there and back unless you sail non stop.
 
#8 ·
I have an Elite 29. I really like the interior. very open. lots of room for sails if you plan on racing. you can slap a lot of headsails up in the forward V-bearth. It really likes winds in the 15kt range. above 17 i put the reef on the main, non racing conditions, so with a decent amount of rail meat you can keep the full main up in higher winds with a blade jib.

Mine is a CB model, so it has the slighty shorter rig, than the 30R. The cockpit is a bit cramped, but i have the wheel option, so with the stick it should be a bit opened up for the extra crew when racing. There are not any handholds in the cabin up high for grabing in heavy weather. You tend to not walk very far in the boat, so this is not a big deal, but can be annoying at times.

Storage is adequate, but fuel is a bit low for any extended cruising. We went through 24g of diesel on our trip from NY to NC. The tank only holds 6. I will admit that one of our crew was more of a motor guy, so on most of his watches he would start the Iron jib if the winds died just a bit. For this reason we prolly used significantly more diesel than we should have.

Like you i have never raced/owned a boat with a motor before. It does take some getting used to. It will also take some getting used to the sheer mass of a 30+' boat compared to a 20' cat. I have a Nacra 5.2 that i have sailed for the past 15+ years.

I am guessing you are looking at the Elite 30 in Mi. When i was looking for my boat i almost flew up to look at that one. My wife decided she wanted wheel steer, she always had trouble tillering the nacra.

i am unable to post the link to the owners group, due to me not having more than 10 posts. :( i will give you hint, it starts with http and ends with groups.yahoo.com/group/eliteowners. lets see if this gets by the filter. :D

here is the link to the yahoo group for Kirie owners. I just sent a lot of brochure and manuals to the moderator for posting in the files section. Nearly all of the info is the same between the 29 and the 30. Hopefully it will get posted soon to help you with your decision.

if you have any specific questions fire away.

G~
 
#10 ·
Thanks. great insights.

Why is everybody saying that it takes a lot of upkeep for the Hinckley 30sw. If the boat is fiberglass, very little wood on deck, very simple interior and pretty straightforward (tiller etc), and if it was restored and updated recently; why should it be different from any other boat 30-40 yo?
And would she be so slower than any other i mentioned?

Among hinckley, 30 Hinckley SW, Sabre 34-36-38, 37 Vauquiez, 37 Tartan, 38 Little Harbor, 39 C&C Northeast, 40 Bristol, 40 Cal, 40 Palmer Johnson NY, is there any boat that has good speed in light medium wind?

I will look into the elite more carefully and I am sure i will have further questions...

:confused:
 
#12 ·
The best indicator of light wind performance would be the weight of the boat. The lighter the boat the better. Most of those boats are displacement boats so it is all a matter of getting the boat to hull speed anyway. the lighter the boat the easier it is to get to hull speed.

have you ever raced against a J-22. Those little buggers are unbeatable in light airs.

G~
 
#13 ·
We race and cruise our 81 C&C 34 on The Sound and strongly recommend C&C. The boats were built in Canada so they easily take anything The Sound can throw at them. They are fast and yet PHRF friendly, meaning you can beat the rating with skill. We bought it from a couple at City Island YC that used it to summer at Block Island so it cruises well. Our family of four find it very comfortable.

Also take a look at this SailingWorld article "16 PHRF Racers to Fit a Budget" on their web site. I thought their suggestions were right on.
 
#15 ·
If one likes to sail with a crew of 2 or 3 people at the most, does it make sense to have a powerful boat that will need to be reefed very early?
How unconfortable and uneasy would it be to sail a j34 or NY36 or Frers F-3 in medium winds?
I like the cabin or the NY36. Is there any boat who sails well and fast, doesn't need a crew and has somewht rich accomodation?
 
#16 ·
IMO if you have a boat that likes to "go" then you'll sail more often and in lighter air.

If you are in a generally high wind area (I'm a west coaster but don't believe LI sound is considered such a place, is it?) then a less powerful boat may make more sense.

Otherwise, proper sail management will make the whole experience more rewarding for you. A J34 (not such a "rich" interior) or the F3 should be managable in moderate breezes with a crew of 3. We have a fractional 34 footer that we routinely sail with two, without any sort of furler.
 
#17 ·
Of the 3 boats listed above, my gut feeling is that you would like the Frers the best. it has the greatest ballast per weight of the three. the interior is more useable in a cruising sense then the others. at least looking at, having never been on any of them.

your criteria is very close to what i was looking for, your price point is a bit higher.if not i would have prolly grabbed the Frers :D my wife really wanted 2 separate sleeping compartments, so the Frers would have been a tougher sell for me.

minimal wood on the topside is always a plus for me. Teak is the greatest looking stuff on somebody else' boat. :D

having raced cats, i am sure you are used to being over powered regularly. reefing down a main is a lot easier on these big boats then on a cat. if you are in any doubt throw up a blade up front and you will be fine.

having raced on fast boats also, i knew i would not be satisfied with a heavier displacement cruiser or full blue water boat. i would guess you would feel the same way.

whichever way you lean, try and get a sail on either of these boats. you will quickly get a feel on whether or not it is to your liking.

G~
 
#18 ·
Thank you faster and ceol,

I agree that I will not be happy with a boat that has really poor performance. However boats like J34, NY36 and frers seem more like alarge dinghy. You go out, enjoy sailing and racing, go back, wash everything and go back home. They wouldn't really be appealling for me to spend weekends on the boat in the marina and maybe have guests...
We are talking about a 34-40 feet boat....

Would a sabre 34, Vauquiez Chance 37, Palmer Johnson NY40, CAL 40 or Vauquiez Pretorian 35 be so much slower? Unbearably slower?
 
#20 ·
.....
Would a sabre 34, Vauquiez Chance 37, Palmer Johnson NY40, CAL 40 or Vauquiez Pretorian 35 be so much slower? Unbearably slower?
No, none of those listed is likely to be unbearably slow, especially cruising. Beer can racing would probably be OK too.

Cruisability is definitely up a notch, though I don't think you'd find the other 2 (NY36 or F3) interiors uncomfortable either. Ceol is right when he says the F3 would likely stand up on its own with fewer crew.

If you can, nows the time to get a first hand look at these boats and get a better feel for what you like and don't about each of them.... and be open minded - you may run into something that is not on your list that proves to be a good fit.
 
#19 ·
I picked my Elite 29 because it was a fairly light boat for a 30' at 6700lbs, yet the interior was nice enough that my wife liked it. the longer the boat the faster it is going to be anyway. racing boats just accelerate faster and might be able to plane going downwind. the more amenities you add the less likely it will accelerate quickly and plane with spinnaker. the top speed for all of these boats are going to be very close, with the edge towards the longer boats. On the flip side to this the faster boats will have a flat bottom, which can make long passages a banging affair. there are tradeoffs. within a sound a flat bottom boat may be fine, but when you head out into open water a fuller keel becomes a nice thing to have.

i would start actively sitting on some boats to get a feel for what you think is comfortable. i like simple interiors. you may like loads of joinery. Sounds like you are leaning more towards the cruising/entertaining side. if doing long trips the cabin size is more important. Shorter/daysailing trips the cockpit size is more important. It sounds like it is time to go visiting some boats. :D

the NY40 looks very nice. At least to my internal criteria. :D

G~
 
#21 ·
Regarding the NY36 -- which is the only boat you are considering that I have first hand experience on -- I would further characterize it as more of a racer/cruiser than a cruiser/racer, which is to say the design (especially the rig) emphasizes the "race" more than the "cruise". The interior, while interesting, is probably better suited as a crash pad for "away" races.

I previously mentioned the large mainsail, but neglected to add that the rig is further complicated by running backstays (or checkstays, if you prefer). There is a very lightweight backstay that goes to the masthead, but it is primarily used for inducing mast bend/rake. The real "backstay" is the working runner, which must be switched from side to side each time you tack (much like going between your working/lazy jib sheets). No problem for a boat with crew, but shorthanded it can be a royal nuisance.

One of my brothers owned one and we campaigned it for a number of years -- typically with a crew of 6-8. If we only had 5, that was pushing it for racing. I also delivered the boat with only 1 crew on many occasions, but it was not very relaxing. The boat get's overpowered quickly and even with the main reefed you still have to deal with the running backstays.

Again, NY36 is a good boat for PHRF racing, but not so great in my experience for shorthanded cruising/daysailing. Also I have seen NY 40s and I can't imagine they would be any more manageable.
 
#25 ·
Mike

The Santana 35 might be a good choice for SNAP although the interior is not a really good cruising one - no Vberth, for instance. The Schock 35 is a tweaked, longer LWL, masthead version of the Santana - it rates considerably faster.

The Schock 36 referred to is quite different - a more powerful boat. It was marketed as the NY36 and is a Bill Cook design.
 
#27 ·
Well..after seeing a bunch of the boats we were talking about, I stepped foot on a J105 and I was blown away. So beautiful, simple, effective, clean. I am going to sail it in the next days.
I know that is a 35feet with an Igloo cooler, with no interior...

What do you think Faster, jeff, ceol, sailorman? Have you sailed it and raced against it?
 
#28 ·
Neat boats, like you say - but no standing headroom for most, very minimal cruising amenities. Definitely an easier boat to sail shorthanded, but probably a bit pricey. If you can handle all that, go go.

They have good one design action in certain areas, but they seem to do pretty well in PHRF as well.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Have never sailed on a 105. I see their sterns on a regular basis, and try to pretend I am not bothered as they pass me by :)

I have a very favorable opinion of J-boats though... But, I have been seduced by the wonders of propane, refrigeration and showers :(

Let me think of something negative to say here.... hmm ... if it has laminate sails you're going to have to replace them soon (probably)... that's about it.
 
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